Harrier & Elevator - Ailerons down or up? What will help

[Carl Layden]

Hi Folks,

I've read several "how-to"s and seen a few videos. Some say couple ailerons to elevator so they go down like flaps when up elev is used. But others suggest the ailerons go up when up elev is used :?:

I've been using only elevator no coupling, about 45 deg of throw. I know I need to move my CG a little more aft (maybe 1/4"). I'd like to improve my harriers & elevators, ie slow them down and make the decent more vertical.

Suggestions on what may help?

[JimMcIntyre]

For harrier, I couple flap(erons) to elevator.

(in Homer Simpson style narrative)
elevator goes up, flap goes down
elevator goes down, flap goes up
...
:P

I have a seperate mix for spoilers for doing "the elevator"; up elevator, full spoiler (flaperons up) and a bit of throttle to keep the controls active.

[Carl Layden]

Jeez that took long, Jim you must live here on RCC :P

so to paraphase

flaperons for harrier
&
spoilers for elevator

guess that explains why I was getting confused it's opposite for each.

or as homer would say D'oH!

[sarawnty]

Hi Carl,
I think it depends on the kind of plane you're flying. I use about a 5/8" of UP deflection on my 40% Edge for both elevators and harriers. It helps to reduce, or in my case, eliminate wing rocking during these manuevers. Not sure about the science behind this but it works. However, too much deflection can make the problem worse.

[JimMoss]

Carl if your interested in tightening loops, what Jim Mc has described is the way to go (On my JR radio I have this switched with Elev-Flap switch).

For the Harrier and Elevator what Steve has described (IMHO) is the way to go (I use the Land switch for this).

Also as Steve has mentioned the more up flap you use the faster it will come down, to a point, If you use too much you loose your ailerons, just not enough movement anymore. :wink:

Jim Moss :)

[Carl Layden]

The plane I'm using is an Aeroworks Edge 540T 60/90 arf.

It's powered by a YS 1.20AC

It's beginning to sound like a little x'periment'n might be needed.

Thanks Jim and Stephen for the quick replies.

[can773]

Having the ailerons go up with up elevator essentially lowers the angle of attack on the main wing (chord line is at less of an angle to the airflow) allowing less wing rock, and generally more stable elevators and harriers. Works best with ailerons that run most of the span and off the tip.

Using flaperons in these situations only increases the anlge of attack on the wing making things worse.

[JimMcIntyre]

Using flaperons in these situations only increases the anlge of attack on the wing making things worse.

While the effective angle of attack can easily be controlled by changing your pitch.... if all it did was change the angle of attack, full scale pilots would not likely find it very useful. :P


I like flaperon for harrier as it increases both effective lift and drag making for nice slow harriers. True, the same can be accomplished by increasing pitch angle of the aircraft but this results in something I call "falloff" (for lack of the technical term) where rudder movement results in amplified (due to increased pitch angle) CG vs CL (centre of gravity vs centre of lift) changes resulting in a "twitchy tail".

To each their own, and, as already mentioned, the design of the aircraft is important.

[can773]

Sorry Jim but practical experience shows me otherwise.

Flaperons will serve to increase angle of attack vs no flaperons. When you are already at near or over the critical AOA of the airfoil using flaperons will only put you further into stall which does little to nothing for roll axis stability.

The drag on a model during harriers is already so high due to the wing area being presented to the airflow that whatever small amount of drag due to flaperons is essentially negligable.

Using a small amount of spoilerons during harriers or elevators can lower the wings AOA enough to bring the wing out of stall and significantly increase its stability, making for much more controlled flying in these manouvers.

I have never had any experience to lead me to believe that rudder becomes more sensitive with change in AOA, if anything I would say I have experienced the opposite effect where I find it to have less effectiveness in those situations.

[JimMcIntyre]

What I was eluding too is that a little down elevator will change effective AOA as well....

Yes, rudder may be less effective in a harrier (than in ordinary flight) due to reduced airflow but ... consider the affect effective AOA due to pitch angle and vector and you'll soon see the increased pitch angle required to sustain height (while keeping airspeed minim, which is the point) when deploying spoilers will result in increased roll coupling (picture hinge angle related to flightpath). Of course you have to picture the effective AOA to visualize the full effect of the coupling as the aircraft is not travelling along the normal thrust-line (now somewhere below the nose and above the turtledeck).

Again, much depends on the design as we haven't accounted for 'shadowing' of the flying surfaces at this extreme angle. A more closely coupled aircraft (eg. typical profile funfly) will behave radically different than a more 'square' design (longer relative fuse length)... to say nothing about higher aspect ratio designs. :lol:

... but I would be the last to claim to be an expert on this matter... IOW, use what works for you and your aircraft. :lol:

[Randy Brown]

Carl most airplanes in Scale Aerobatics in this hobby that where design for 3D like Edges, Extras,Caps My Suk, most like to use up ailerons

I would try roughlys around 1/2" and start high:)

Matter of fact somewhere with my suk instructoins Mike McConville even sugests using UP

Have fun old buddy

Randy


Hi Folks,

I've read several "how-to"s and seen a few videos. Some say couple ailerons to elevator so they go down like flaps when up elev is used. But others suggest the ailerons go up when up elev is used :?:

I've been using only elevator no coupling, about 45 deg of throw. I know I need to move my CG a little more aft (maybe 1/4"). I'd like to improve my harriers & elevators, ie slow them down and make the decent more vertical.

Suggestions on what may help?

[Carl Layden]

Well folks I think I'll put that new 8103 to work and create a couple of set-ups.

I'll try both and let you all know how it worked out.

TTYL

ps Jason - if you're listening/watching I like this new 3D forum :TU:

[Dapped]

Hey Carl,
Please let us know as I am wondering the same thing. I've been playing with just this is my SE. Nothing perfected yet!
Cheers
Don

[AJCoholic]

With the fun flies I have, to do an awesome elevator and descend with allmost no forward motion, I raise my ailerons up a lot (spilerons I guess?) and it works. But to do tight loops, flaperons (opposite ailerons and elev.)

As for harriers, I guess I dont really do anything (neutral flaps) just fly the plane :)

[sarawnty]

Hi Folks,
Interesting discussion. During high AOA harriers, I steer the plane with the rudder and use the ailerons to keep the wings level in turns (with opposite aileron). I rarely touch the ailerons in elevators but again use the rudder the steer the plane. I use a combination of throttle and elevator to control AOA and hight. Really enjoy harrier landings too. Can't remember that last time I landed properly. :-)

[JimMoss]

Andrew .... what I said! :wink:

Jim Moss :)

[KevinPerry]

Really enjoy harrier landings too. Can't remember that last time I landed properly.


Neither can we Steve :!: :wink:


KP

[JimMcIntyre]

... it appears I'm in the minority here.

Oh well, wouldn't be the first time. :?

I'm going to have to experiment with this but, unfortunately my only 3D capable plane is down for repairs since the last too-low altitude waterfall at the Cullen Gardens show. :oops:

[JimMoss]

Jim Mc ..... maybe you should get a 3D ARF :lol:

Jim Moss :)

[747drvr]

What's the difference between a harrier and an elevator ?

Marc

[sarawnty]

Hi,
Go here for a definition of some 3D manuevers:
http://horizon.hobbyshopnow.com/articles/1022.asp
http://horizon.hobbyshopnow.com/articles/1033.asp

[AJCoholic]

simply put, elevator is a decent at idle, with little forward motion and a slow controlled near vertical descent. You slow up the plane, and keep feeding elevator untill you are at full elevator and then play with the ailerons to hold the wing from dropping one side or the other. Its cool, but requires a very light wing loading (respective to the planes size)

Harrier is just a high alpha, slow flyby, basically hanging on the prop and moveing along slowly playing with throttle, aileron/rudder and elevator to hold the attitude and alititude.

[Randy Brown]

SJ,, this is why you have kept Paul so busy<G>



Can't remember that last time I landed properly. :-)

[sarawnty]

Haven't broken a prop all year. :-) He's busy because he's making a good product.

[JimMcIntyre]

Jim Mc ..... maybe you should get a 3D ARF :lol:

Jim Moss :)

Maybe I should tell your wife what you really have invested in the hobby. :twisted: :wink:

[AJCoholic]

Now thats just plain evil!!! :twisted: ;) :)

[JimMoss]

Jim Mc ..... maybe you should get a 3D ARF :lol:

Jim Moss :)

Maybe I should tell your wife what you really have invested in the hobby. :twisted: :wink:
Go ahead and tell her!

After what I just spent on her daughters wedding (My stepdaughter) I should go buy myself a twin turbine F-15 ready to fly ....... that should make us just about even! :wink:

Jim Moss :)

[JimMcIntyre]

Ouch! :shock:

[Randy Brown]

Like I beleive you:)


Yes Paul does and he is going to be getting real busy soon I bet<G>



Haven't broken a prop all year. :-) He's busy because he's making a good product.

[Randy Brown]

you should have more:)



Jim Mc ..... maybe you should get a 3D ARF :lol:

Jim Moss :)

Maybe I should tell your wife what you really have invested in the hobby. :twisted: :wink:
Go ahead and tell her!

After what I just spent on her daughters wedding (My stepdaughter) I should go buy myself a twin turbine F-15 ready to fly ....... that should make us just about even! :wink:

Jim Moss :)

[2thelmt]

Jim Mc ..... maybe you should get a 3D ARF :lol:

Jim Moss :)

A Spad 3D (SPA3D), $ 15.00 for the airframe, a great plane to practice 3D stuff on. When you crash, clean the dirt off, an re-launch to do it again. :lol:

[JimMcIntyre]

No thanks, I value my rc equipment and safety too much. :P

Seriously, this is something that concerns me about "the SPAD phenomenon", if I bounce a plane (balsa) hard enough to break it, I check the crystal (minimum) before commiting the plane to flight again.

Do yourself a favour, dismantle an old crystal to see how fragile these things truly are... your control is literally hanging on a hair. :shock:

[AJCoholic]

Jim, what exactly do you do to "check" a crystal? Perhaps this would be a good topic to cover in the general RC forum...

After a crash, I just do a range check and a visual inspection of wires, etc but have no idea how to check the receiver crystal... :?:

[JimMoss]

Andrew by range checking and checking wires etc. you have basically checked your crystal the only other thing that can be done is a tap test!

To do this you do as stated simply tap the receiver (not with a 20 lb sledge :shock: ..... however I did use the 20 lb'er on a DAD receiver that irritated me one to many times! :lol: ) to see if there is any interference caused to the signal.

Jim Moss :)

[craigk]

really good advice
thanks :D

[2thelmt]

No thanks, I value my rc equipment and safety too much. :P

Seriously, this is something that concerns me about "the SPAD phenomenon", if I bounce a plane (balsa) hard enough to break it, I check the crystal (minimum) before commiting the plane to flight again.

Do yourself a favour, dismantle an old crystal to see how fragile these things truly are... your control is literally hanging on a hair. :shock:

The crystal is fragile but also encased for protection. The crystal is also the simplist circuit there is, it either works, or it doesn't. Tape it to your receiver so she don't wiggle out.
Range checking goes without saying in my camp.

p.s. I think you took my statement a little to literally...

[Terry Gauvin]

"The crystal is fragile but also encased for protection. The crystal is also the simplist circuit there is, it either works, or it doesn't."

This may not always be the case. I have had crystals work fine after a crash and only found a problem when taping the top of the crystals case with the side of a pencil. I have also place the entire flight pack on the table of my scroll saw and tested it under vibration and found issues post crash so Jim's advise should be followed in my opinion.

[Tattoo]

26 years of flying. Hundreds of airplanes. Over three hundred Spads. 15 years of combat. Hundreds of mid-airs. First summer of 3D. Pile drove my Qhors and Spad 3d's more times than I can count. In all that, I've lost two...yep TWO crystals. One was from a center punch combat mid-air that exploded the Rx. The other was such a catastrophic mid-air that the Rx was never found. Other than that, no problems whatsoever. JIM, GET OVER YOUR STUCK UP HATRED FOR PEOPLE HAVING FUN WITH SPADS, BUILD ONE, AND HAVE SOME FUN. 8)

BTW, one of the best vibration testers I use is a dremel with a bent piece of music wire chucked in it. Run it at high speed and touch the handle to what you are vibe checking. Also, from the flying experience I've had, the item that is the most suseptable to vibration, dirt, and cause a crash is the cheapo after market switches. This is one place that even this Spadder will no longer cut corners on.

[2thelmt]

So how many of you take brand new electronic equipment (or post crash)apart (before flying) to look for freebee's??? You know, those little pieces of solder and wire left over from the manufacturing process that just float around inside our receivers and other systems...they can reek havock!

Lets define CRASH...When i'm hovering my SPA3D 5' off the deck and she flips over, "crashes" on her back...i don't even break a prop...I am not going to pack things up so I can play paranoid flyer?

The crystal IS a vibrating circuit as simple as a light bulb. If a proper range check is done, with the motor running (a vibrator) problems, if any, should surface with flight systems.

Lets all have some fun...fly a SPAD!

[AJCoholic]

"Lets define CRASH...When i'm hovering my SPA3D 5' off the deck and she flips over, "crashes" on her back...i don't even break a prop...I am not going to pack things up so I can play paranoid flyer? "

Yup. I'd have to agree. Most of my "crashes" with my el cheapo this summer (and my PQHOR) were from low and slow flight, some I just picked it up and restarted it (no broken prop) after maybe trying something too low... or ditching into the field on a botched trick.

The whole nature of "3D" stuff is low speed, slow and right in your face - so most crashes are akin to taking the plane and dropping it from a few feet.

Now that doesnt include folding a wing, or going in from 200 feet full bore ;)

[JimMoss]

Now that doesnt include folding a wing, or going in from 200 feet full bore ;)

And which plane did that happen too? :twisted: :wink:

Jim Moss :)

[AJCoholic]

'el Cheapo #1, in Sudbury.

The equipment flew shortly after in 'el Cheapo Grande with no problems, too many times to count. :)

Now on a more serious note, I personally have witnessed people (in my home club) take a suspect receiver, install into a built-up plane and proceed to crash due to radio failure! Stupid, yes. But it isnt a SPAD -only phenomenon thats for sure. And dont get me started on guys trying to fly with suspect or near to dead battery packs.... nuttin' to do with SPAD's either...

[ronm]

I know what you mean, Andrew!
Last year we had I guy in our club who tried everything to re-furbish a standard 400MAH 4-cell battery pack that wasn't holding a charge. After several people in the club told him to trash it, he just would not give up! At our monthly meeting, he brought the pack in and was asking around for someone to help him save the pack. I asked him if the pack had been cycled several times, and he said yes, but with bad results.
I asked him why he hadn't thrown the pack out, and he said he was going to try to use the pack in a limited capacity. I asked if I could look at the pack, so he handed it to me. I happened to have a pair of wire cutters handy, so I snipped off the lead, and handed it back to him.
He got real upset, but I told him that as a safety officer I couldn't allow him to fly with suspect radio gear.
He has never forgiven me!
Too bad!

Check your radio gear after a crash guys! Do a thorough physical inspection, and an engine running range check. Most times, this is enough to tell if there is a problem.

Ronm

[JimMcIntyre]

nuttin' to do with SPAD's either...

Neither was my comment other than relating the fact that a more indestructible aircraft is likely to lead to more people simply tossing a suspect aircraft back into the air without even checking.

- Yes, I do check for "freebies" (I've always heard them referred to as 'spatter'), I aslo check lead attach pioints to the pcb board in the rx, all servos (a common failure point) and switches (with ohm meter, under vibration).

"Stuck up hatred for people building SPAD"? :roll:
Get over it. I respond to people based on personality, not the material they choose to build with..... come out swinging and you get an equally agressive response which you interpret as agression. :?

[cplant]

a more indestructible aircraft is likely to lead to more people simply tossing a suspect aircraft back into the air without even checking.

I agree 100%. I have been guilty of this myself in the past :oops: and fortunately scared the crap out of myself and learned from it before anything tragic happened.

I recently witnessed a fellow setting up a balsa trainer to fly. In ground tests his aileron extension had proved to be intermittent at best. His idea was that "it's working right now, and if it fails I can fly with rudder only". No amount of discussion could convince him that things like engine vibration, and turbulence made a failure highly probable. All one could do was hide under a picnic table and watch the inevitable. His extension plug failed alright, in a turn with the ailerons at half deflection and that's where they stayed.

Poor judgement or plain old stupidity unfortunately happens in all aspects of this hobby. Some people just don't care. The only difference a Spad makes sometimes is that you can go home with a somewhat repairable plane at the end of the day instead of a bag of sticks. :)

I agree that there are a few out there who probably shouldn't fly Spads. A very small minority of flyers seem to have little regard for safety or enjoyment of the hobby by others and expensive fragile balsa planes are the only things that keep these people in check. Thankfully they are few and far between. :P

It's everybody's responsibility to take necessary precautions and try to exercise some good judgement. If people can remember that indestuctable or not, an out of control plane can inflict serious injury and cause major damage to property, and use that to restrain themselves, then there really shouldn't be a problem with us all enjoying our hobby, flying plastic or wood. :wink:

[Tattoo]

I respond to people based on personality, not the material they choose to build with..... come out swinging and you get an equally agressive response which you interpret as agression.

No thanks, I value my rc equipment and safety too much.

Yeah, and I judge my equipment's condition by vibe/functional/range checks...not by paranoia or the material of the plane it is installed in. :shock:

In the almost 27 years of flying I've done...approx 22 years of that was done flying balsa...@ 40 or so balsa airplanes. I always push the envelope and that involves some pretty good wreckage piles. One thing I've learned about Spads is that the radio damage has been almost nothing in crashes...even on Spads with exposed radio gear. Even in combat. I lost a heck of a lot more equipment in my balsa days from airframes disintigrating around the equipment...ripping servo arms off, stripping servos, spitting batteries and Rx's out...you name it. The Spads stay together, and eliminate this.

[JimMcIntyre]

Funny thing.
When I see some spads, I see a receiver exposed to exhaust fuel and vibration (often transmitted via a cable tie).... I also see figure 9s followed by propeller replacement and a toss back in the air.

One is a mounting/construction/design issue, the other is behaviour.

Now I'm not saying that you are guilty of this Tattoo (I've never had the pleasure of flying with you), but I can only call 'em as I see 'em locally.

As for your luck with radio damage, I know of people who smoked all their long lives and never suffered health problems ... but I wouldn't recommend this behaviour to others. :roll:

[Tattoo]

but I can only call 'em as I see 'em locally

Holy cow...if you want to go by that rule...Spads rule BY FAR!!! In fact...much of the small hardware I use on my Spads came from the dumpster at the field...most from balsa ARF's...but then, we won't go in that direction.

[JimMcIntyre]

:?:

Oh, I get it, quantity instead of quality... the choice of the SPAD church. :roll:

[Tattoo]

You will be assimilated you heathen :twisted:

[ronm]

You guys crack me up!! :D :D

Ronm

[JimMoss]

but I can only call 'em as I see 'em locally.

Yo .... Jimmy Mc .... You talkin bout me! :evil:

Have to agree with Tattoo I've damaged more radio equip. in Balsa planes than I have in Spads ....... Of course I've flown alot more balsa planes too though. :wink:

Jim Moss :)

[AJCoholic]

You guys crack me up!! :D :D

Ronm

They are doing something to me too Ron, but I am not yet sure what!! (cry, laugh, snicker, its all good I guess! ;) :) :lol: )

You boys play nice now... 8)

[Tattoo]

Jim's just mad at me that's all...because I can get up on Saturday morning and saw, cut, drill, screw and zip a plane together...and be out doing all the maneuvers this thread mentions...by noon. No fuel proofing, covering, waiting for glue to dry...none of that. The plane is tougher than snot, so if it's extremidies wank the ground, it doesn't blow up into kindling and damage my radio equipment. It's just not fair and Jim knows that. If I had been working an a plane for the last several days, and was still gling sticks together and waiting for stuff to dry...while my buddies were out at the field, man...I'd be mad too. I'd really be mad if I started comparing costs. But Jim is a smart man. I know he has coroplast, and several Spads hidden in his workshop. He's just a closet Spadder who hasen't "come out" yet. One of the reasons I know this is because he keeps putting us on a pedistal. Spadders are by nature grass roots, slightly against the grain, outside the box, free thinking kind of outlaw types. Spadders like eating cold morning pizza and making a pair of underware last several days. They probably are some of the best booger pickers and butt scratchers out there, and yet Jim holds Spadders in the ranks of a "phenomenon", "movement", "elitists" and even refers to it as a "religion" or "church" from time to time. Sometimes I wish I knew more about Physcology, as it would be interesting to try to figure out why Jim puts Spadders so high...but then tries to knock them down every chance he gets. Or maybe that's just a sport for him to do while he's waiting for glue to dry or something 8) :wink:

[JimMcIntyre]

... it doesn't blow up into kindling and damage my radio equipment

Geez, if I flew like that, I'd be slappin SPADs together every Saturday morning too. :P

[Tattoo]

That's the first commandment:

Thow shalt fly it like ya gotta pair. :shock:

[JimMcIntyre]

At least my "pair" aren't on my chin. :lol:

[FrankC29]

Jim, exactly what the hell was that last comment supposed to mean?

[Tattoo]

My guess is that in his fit of jelous rage, he is calling us deekheads :shock: :wink:

[JimMcIntyre]

"deekhead"?

Not familiar with this term, is this some form of American slang?

FrankC29: read the post I was replying to ( Tattoo's )

[Tattoo]

deekhead: It is part of the top secret Spad code. You have to crash the same Rx in at least 100 Spads before you can recieve the elitest Spad code handbook that may or may not exist.

[SpadHawk]

I'm at 95. I'll be applyin for my code book soon.
SpadHawk

[ronm]

95 crashes?? 100 crashes?? No wonder you need spads.
(I couldn't afford the props)

Ronm
:lol:

[Tattoo]

Spad 2nd commandment:

Thow shalt spend more money on props and fuel than the rest of the hobby combined.

[AJCoholic]

Thats not hard, just build and fly PBF!! ;) 8)

PBF was a conspiracy by the major prop makers to drum up more business.... :shock: (ok that part I made up ;) )

[JimMoss]

I went through about 15 props than I put a small wire landing gear on my PBF, just so I wouldn't break props! :roll:

But since then I have only broke 2 props both from unrecoverable inverted spins, ...... But even better is that it flies as well as before and now I can do touch and goes, ROG and taxi!

Jim Moss :)

[Cecil Marshall]

Hey Jim:

How do you get those "critters" out of an "inverted flat spin".. :?:

9 out of 10 times that I've "dumped" my PBF, was doing inverted flat spins. :oops:

I don't think I got out of one yet :roll:

Cecil :wink:

[AJCoholic]

Cecil,
if I remember what Dave Macdonald (the designer of the PBF) said, it needs opposite recovery from an inverted spin than a "regular" plane...

[JimMoss]

Like Andrew says ....... Opposite!

If you do spins with other aircraft ........ Do what doesn't feel natural with a PBF and it will come out!! :roll: :wink:

[Cecil Marshall]

Is there "anything" natural with a PBF :yikes: :lol:

Cecil :wink:

[JimMoss]

:? NO! :twisted:

That's what makes them so much fun ..... Me thinks!! :wink:

[2thelmt]

deekhead: It is part of the top secret Spad code. You have to crash the same Rx in at least 100 Spads before you can recieve the elitest Spad code handbook that may or may not exist.

I think I'm about 1/4 deekhead...Aiming for 1/2... :lol:
I love these commandments of yours...keep em coming.

[Tattoo]

Spad 3rd commandment:

Ignor jeers and negitive comments before flying. They will turn into questions by the time you land 8)

[lomcevak]

Hey Carl, if you want more vertical descent, get a chopper...LOL

Take care

Richard

[Carl Layden]

Welcome to RCC!

Hey Carl, if you want more vertical descent, get a chopper...LOL

Take care

Richard

Got one :P
Had an excellent deal that I couldn't turn down on an Ergo 30 complete with Irvine engine and a gyro.

So here I sit trying to fly Heli's like planes and trying to make planes fly like helis.... :shock:

Maybe it's time to start C/L again.

How's the snow Richard? Our first storm is expected tomorrow 15 cm :(

[lomcevak]

:? Hi Carl,

we are ahead of you this year. We had 15 cm yesterday. Not a storm however, just plain fluffy snow. Well, we can't help it, can we?

I am building a 42 % Velox, with a ZDZ 160 champion and HItec digitals servos and Biela 28X12X3 composite prop.The beast is 123 '' WS and 116 '' long. Should come out around 38 pounds.

I am also building a G-Ride, small electric aerobat, 36'' WS and 34'' long. With a Razor 350 brushless motor, 1200 MA LiPoly batteries, will come out at 13.5 to 14 ounces RTF. I will be able to practice my IMAC in my backyard.

Take care.

Richard