WW 1 rules update

[deyeallen]

WW 1 Inaugural rules to be used at the Dawn Patrol Challenge in London ONT Sept 18th

Aircraft workout to be approximately 1/8th scale
1.Must be a single seat fighter that had forward firing machine guns and that flew combat duty in WW 1
2. Monoplanes will not be eligible for this event.
3.Minimum wingspan for biplanes is 42 inches
4.Minimum wingspan for triplanes is 36 inches
5.Minimum airfoil thickness is 9/16th inches
6.Maximum weight is 4 1/2 lbs
7.Maximum engine is a .26 two stroke. For the London contest any 26 is legal however this may be changed later to only plain bearing engines.
8.Wings,stabs and rudders must be exact scale outline.Fuselages must be exact scale outline but may have the nose extended to a maximum 2 inches or the tail shortened 1 inch. The maximum total fuselage modification shall not exceed 2 inches .IE if you shorten the tail 1 inch then you may only extend the nose 1 inch.If you do not modify the fuse you may move the wings aft to a maximum 1 and a half inches. However if there is a stagger in the wings the exact stagger must be maintained.These modifications are to help achieve the proper center of gravity on examples that had a very short nose.
9.All aircraft must have a scale landing gear that will allow the model to takeoff even if the take off option is not being used.
10.All aircraft must have a tail skid.A tailwheel may also be used to help with takeoffs if so desired.
The scoring rules are posted in the thread below.

[deyeallen]

The scoring and field layout will remain exactly the same as 1/12th scale combat except for the following scoring exceptions.

1. 2:00 minutes from start engine until start combat.

2 . 25 points for an on time hand launch.
50 points for an on time takeoff
25 points for a late takeoff

3. 50 points for flying the full round
75 points for a successful landing out on the far side of the
of the safety line between two marked points on the field,and
inside of the combat engagement line.The marked points will
be extremely generous not like the carrier event in 1/12th
combat.In order to receive the additional 25 landing points the
model must come to rest in the above area and remain on its
landing gear without flipping over or nosing over and then
falling back on its gear,or having the landing gear fail.
4. The streamer will be 25 feet with a 10 foot string.

5. If landing before end combat only the 25 landing points are
possible.
6. Each plane must be quickly removed if in the landing area
before the next plane is given clearance to land.

Any questions or concerns please feel free to let them be known on this thread.

Mike Allen

[Patch]

so basically, your automatically docked 50 points for having a plane without landing gear? and possibly another 25 if landing before end combat without landing gear

25 points for a hand launch vs takeoff, and even a late takeoff with a 2 min time slot still gets points??

"In order to receive the additional 25 landing points the
model must come to rest in the above area and remain on its
landing gear without flipping over or nosing over and then
falling back on its gear,or having the landing gear fail."
this means you must have landing gear to get the points?

Why not just state all WWI planes must have landing gear and that would make these rules/points unnessecary.

" The streamer will be the same 30 feet with a 10 foot string,how
ever the extra string will not play in additional scoring"

it never counted at 5' let alone 10'

Don't get me wrong, I think this WWI thing is pretty cool, and I want to give it a go, I just think your being a little too technical with rules that don't need to exist. Like I mentioned, just make it a rule that all WWI planes need to have landing gear. I don't know of any true WWI planes that didn't anyway

[Bob Byrnes]

Mike: I see the rationale for extra points for accomplishing real take offs and landings. I think at the outset there was a strong belief these birds would rise off ground but they have been more reliable when hand launched. Gaining the extra points is clearly going to require more practice and patience. I didn't realize you guys had gone to a 10 foot string however. I am accustomed to 5 feet only. No big deal.....
Looking forward to seeing the " Great War " planes fly and fight....

[Buzz]

Patch,

I think this is only the point scheme for the WW1 birds. Thus far, the "rules" are the same as the unofficial U.S. rules for WW1 (i.e. 1/8 scale, under 4lbs, .25 plain bearing engine, and landing gear a must). The only thing we are changing as far as plane modifications (and deadeye will correct me if I'm wrong) is that we are allowing up to an additional 2" of nose lenght, and a 1" shortening of the tail to facilitate balancing these models.

The reason for the extra points is that from our experiences thus far, its been quite difficult to land one of these birds without turning it upside down, and as for takeoff, with the limited power we are allowing to keep the flight looking as scale as possible, rolling takeoffs have been a challenge as well. (Although I'm starting to master the takeoffs, and had 2 good landings today)

As for the 10' of string, the way these planes fly, from the looks of things, with 8 planes up at once we may have alot of midairs, so we would like to keep the streamers further away from the planes themselves.

I think I've got it right, but as I said, I'm sure deadeye will correct me if i'm wrong. Thsi is a new class for us, so we are learning as we go.

[deyeallen]

Just to clarify the takeoff rule. It is to promote take offs and landings while those that are not able to will not shy away from the sig.and will be allowed to hand launch their planes.
WW 1 biplanes are not the easiest planes to r.o.g. and also many pilots that will be interested in WW 1 combat will come from other combat communities where they have never had to take off or use rudder.
The most you will be penalized is 25 points if you do not take off. All aircraft must have a working landing gear or they are ineligable for the event,as they are heavy and create a lot of drag and it would be too much of an advantage not to have one. Also some pilots are working on break away landing gears and if they fail on landing they will not receive the additional landing points.This rule is just to get things going.
In the future it may become mandatory to takeoff therefore the above rule would be nullified.The 2 minute start rule is just to give a little more time to start a fully cowled engine.
The 10 ft. rule for the streamers is just to give a little more space between airplanes as biplanes are considerably more work to build. However with the limited dog fighting we have done so far the planes stay very close to each other for the entire round so the extra length string may not be of much help.I mentioned the string length not affecting scoring. I anticipated that question but I will amend the above scoring statement immediately and will not in the future try to answer questions until they are asked.
Thanks for your input.

[Bob Byrnes]

Good Stuff Mike. The other component to R.O.G. operation will have to be some sort of streamer release mechanism. I can't see a streamer surviving being dragged along on take off. Something simple like a rubber band released with application of down elevator once flying altitude is reached would probably work. Another chance for you innovative types to be creative.............The weather man is now saying it will be clear and hot on Saturday. Fingers crossed everybody.....

[deyeallen]

There has been talk of exactly that Bob, however so far if it is dry the streamers are no problem on the takeoff roll.I believe Cross check is working on a release system just as you mentioned with the elevator.Maybe we can pick his brain this weekend see ya there.

[canadianice]

I agree. We have to encourage people to build and fly these as close to scale as possible as that is why we started this class in the first place. Some of the older/ low time pilots guys will not fly the WW2 stuff as it's too fast. This also promotes flying skills that will take some of these guys into the higher speed classes and build on our pilot base, if we do this right we can promote our SIG to unheard of levels. I know people love to watch us so why not give them a chance to try with some very beautiful planes. Most people ar intimidated by hand launches so ROG is in my opinion a must and should be encouraged and so should the landings. As for longer strings well ---- happens and in this game it happens a lot so if your worried about that well............... Here is a picture of my { well accually Gary's baby he's got my mk5 spitfire } But I'll be building a bunch so watch out the Flying Circus is coming to a place near you!!! Sorry about changing the pilot Gary but you got to admit the spike is a nice touch and the guns as well

[Bob Byrnes]

I hope a couple of you guys bring along your WW I birds. I'd like to get a good close eyeball at a few. I'm off out the door to try again with the P-47 I just finished. two of them fly really well. This latest is very squirrelly and super sensitive on control inputs. I have never flown a tail heavy aircraft before but I can only assume I got the C.G. wrong this time. I re-balanced her with a definite nose down attitude we'll see how it goes.......

Looks like the sun will shine tomorrow. Jeff, I threw those bats in the van already so I wouldn't forget. I am prone to forgetfullness too often. I guess I'm old...... See you tomorrow....

[Bent]

Jeff
I'm starting a new fighter group, it's going to be called JASTA couple-a-crazy-guys. Had overheating problems all week with the 19 so I threw a 25 LA in it this morning. Haven't flown it with the new engine. It's supposed to be really windy tomorrow, don't worry, an albatros knows how to fly backwards!

[Buzz]

Looks like Bent's got a woody!

hehe :lol:

[Bob Byrnes]

Hey Dan, Keep it clean......LOL

[canadianice]

Kount me in Gary! Went on line got some new paint sceams, still going to do the lozange one though. Here is some thing to help the "WOODY" Its one of those plastic containers you get in vending machines mated to a back plate from my collection of broken spinners, will bring one for you Saturday

[Bob Byrnes]

Hey you guys KEEP IT CLEAN......enough talk about having "woodys" and "Mating".....

[deyeallen]

The rules for London WW 1 combat have been updated at the top of this thread on page one.

[canadianice]

Mike remeber that we wanted to use our old worn out equipment in these planes so if you disalow FX's I got to buy new engines besides we need the weight up front. If you are worried that people will have an advantage with new FX's you better state that no engine mod's are allowed period because I know I can get an FP to turn 19000 with a few tricks. Any way in WW1 manoverability is King !!!! I know we got to have some guidlines just want to keep it simple and have fun. After a whole day of WW2 combat the most fun I had was the one round of WW1 with Gary, rudder rules!!!!

[deyeallen]

Ice.
That is why all 26 engines will be legal this year at London.It will take a while to see what works and what doesn't not only with engines but the whole sig.This will be done with all kinds of input from everyone that will be flying the new WW 1 event.And you are right if the change does come it would be STOCK 25's period.Like the takeoff rule I was just letting everyone know of some area's that may be changed in the future.I for one would like to see mandatory takeoffs but because of the earlier stated reasons the hand launch option is going to be used initially.

Mike Allen

[Bob Byrnes]

That's true I guess. We all have several FX's for WW II. I bought one LA just for comparison and now have it for the WW I event. I think more power could mean more speed but, these planes are just not going to fly too quickly. One thing for sure we don't need as many planes for this event so....... we don't need a whole bunch of new motors. Most guys could limit throttle travel on their FX's to keep the speeds close. After seeing you guys on Sunday the fun is going to be the rudder kick over manouvers and falling off the top of the loops. You don't need much oomph for that. I was most pleased to see you guys were able to cope with the winds with those bipes. I got the squadron book 3 views being blown up for the SE 5. I should make a start this week. Those Albatross' will have another R.F.C. bird to cope with soon........
"Billy Bishop -- Bob Byrnes" --- Both B.B.'s just a coincedance- I wonder......

[Sideslip]

"Billy Bishop -- Bob Byrnes" --- Both B.B.'s just a coincedance- I wonder......

Billy Barker too... another great Canadian WWI ace, and recipient of the VC. Barker was reported to have engaged over 60 enemy planes in one protracted dogfight... during which he was gravely wounded twice, and fainted 3 times during the fight... and still came out of it alive!!!

The book "Barker VC" by Wayne Ralph is a real good read.

[Bob Byrnes]

I've got a good one on the go right now that I bought in the used book store. Stories of many of the WW I Aces...

[deyeallen]

Updated the streamer length. I will have copies of the WW 1 rules at the contest.

[ken park]

:roll: Just wondering why you guys outlawed Monoplanes - I would think that Eindecker etc would fit the WW1 bill - maybe increase there wingspans would slow them down enough to be fair? Mind you Monoplanes would be an easy build also.

PS: I just ordered a bunch of 2mil coro and Iam going to try and build a Bristal Scout - The scout is such a simple design

[Bent]

Go for it Ken! Building a biplane from scratch was a terrific learning experience for me. We're seeing all kinds of materials being integrated with the basic coroplast structure so be creative with your Scout...anything goes. Monoplanes aren't allowed to help ensure a level playing field. Most people think they would look out of place in a sky full of biplanes. That may change if it's proven an Eindecker with a .15 flys like the others. I have an LA 15 and plan to make an EIII with a 50" wingspan this winter. It will take some serious engineering and weight management to get a scale Eindecker to balance out.

[deyeallen]

Ken
The performance issue is one of the reasons ,but even if it was successfully evened out the level of work is such that you would likely get nothing but an Eindecker championship everywere you tried to hold an event.I know that I would not have bothered with all the B.S. of biplanes if the Eindecker was legal.(Everyone must build 2 wings and struts)Glad to hear you are going to be building for this class.Any help just ask,and check out the contest in London this Saturday lots of help and building tips .Mike Allen

[ken park]

8) Ya Baby! - I pick up 4 sheets of white 2mill coro yesterday at local plastic mfg company. I was able to roll 4 - 6ft sheets tape it up and slide it in my back seat of my Malibu. Then I had to cut up a large a sheet of 4mil in 3 pieces to get it in the trunk - Guy working at the company said "where's your pick-up!"

Iam going to try and up-scale slightly the free plans found in "Flying Scale Models" http://www.flyingscalemodels.com Sept 2004 issue British mag worth the subscription if your into scale!

The plane is 29" at 1/10 scale Britsol Scout made using Depron sheet.

Been playing with the Calculator and if I blow it up by 1.52 times it gives me a 44 inch wing. This plan give me a excellent scale outline to follow from. Iam very tempted to try and duplicate the undercamber airfoil they are using! :wink:

[Buzz]

Ken,

That sound a little too much if you are building a bird to fit in our category. That turns out to be between 1/6 and 1/7. We are working in 1/8 scale. Try multiplying it by 1.25

[ken park]

Ok! at 1/8 scale I get just over 36" for the Bristol Scout - The WW1 combat rules give minimum wingspan for biplanes 44" - So yes I am working my design to fit the catagory!

The rules say Approx use 1/8 scale. - Are you guys going too shoot yourself in the foot by eliminating a ton of great planes because it not 1/8 scale.

I like the fact that all planes are of the same size! 44". This levels the playing field as all planes become equal in size. Its Combat not a scale contest. You got to fudge things to fit the rules too play I guess. :twisted:

[Buzz]

Actually Ken, it says a minimum of 42", and this is accomplished by scaling up the wing if need be, not the entire plane. Approx 1:8 would be 1:7.5 - 1:8.5.

!/6 scale would stick out a little much.

[ken park]

:lol: I think this needs to be better explained on the page 1 rules. Like you may have too stretch your wingspan to reach 42" while keeping the rest of the design at the 1/8 scale. That makes mores sense now.

Thanks for explaining that. :P

[deyeallen]

Ken

You simply enlarge the 3 views or the scale plan you are using until you reach at least a wingspan of 42 inches. You increase everything together tail stab and fuselage.The only modifications from exact scale shape is you may lengthen the nose or shorten the tail to help with balance. The mods to the fuse are listed in top of this thread.Other than that just take the plane you are building and scale it up to at least 42 inches. The planes are about 1/8th scale but not all will be ,some will be bigger than 1/8th.Do not blow the fuse up to 1/8th and then keep going on the wing until you have reached 42 inches . Your aircraft at 1/8th you said has a 36 inch wing span so keep enlarging everything until you hit a span of 42.Your plane will look goofy if you stop at an 1/8th on the fuse and tail and go to 42 inches on the wings only.

[Buzz]

Mike,

With all due respect, what will look even goofier is if he ends up with a 1/6 scale plane, cuz thats just about where he's gotta be to get that wingspan up. For the extra 3" per side in wingspan, it will look alot better than increasing the overall diameter of his fuse.

For example, a 4.5" diameter cowl would turn into a 6" diameter cowl. Sounds a little extreme to me. "Close" to 1/8 is reasonable, but I dont think youd find anyone who would agree that 1/6 is "close" to 1/8.

Is the WW1 rule not the same as the proposed WW2 rule? I was under the understanding that next years rule for WW2 would be that the planes remained at 1/12 and the wingspans could be brought up to 40" or tailgroup increased by 20%.

[deyeallen]

Buzz
The rules posted at the top of this thread are for the London contest period.Whether they are adopted in or completely thrown out the window will be up to the scale combat committee and hopefully with input from participants in the event.The engine's were left open to choice because of building with coro and following the above rules you are going to get aircraft that have a 6 plus inch cowl, and heavier coro planes that will require an FX.There are also many planes that following the above rules will fly just fine with a bearing engine.I am going to propose to leave the rules the way they are with one exception.At a certain cowl or nose size you may use the FX and anything under that size must use the plain bearing engine.There is no way you can take all the designs that came from either war with all their differences in size, weight ,and engine power and create exact 1/12th or 1/8th airplanes and force them all to one engine. The above amendment will prevent overpowering planes that do not need it and will still allow bigger types to be used that a plain bearing engine will not be enough for. The WW 1 rules have nothing to do with the WW 11 rules. The other way around this problem would be to go the route you were mentioning staying 1/8th on fuse and extending the wings to 42 inches,allowing only bearing engines.The reason that I prefer my position is to have proper looking scale airplanes. They will not be proper scale to each other, but will perform about the same. In the position you stated you will have proper scale fuselages in proportion to each other and wing spans not in proportion to the aircrafts original span making the planes look semi scale, but again they should perform about the same.To Ken I would hold off a cuttin and a gluen until a set of rules are established for next years events.(especially what engine to buy.) :?:

[Patch]

I have been watching this WWI stuff for a while now and it looks very interesting. Here are some thoughts I have: Why not just pick a wingspan range, then say only planes that can fit this range at 1/8 scale qualify for WWI ? Although this will limit the types of planes flown, it will certainly remove any questionable scale looking planes, while maintaining the level playing field your looking for. As for the engines, there are a lot of FX's out there from WWII planes and many people won't want to purchase new engines. Couldn't a RPM limitation be used instead? Easy enough to check on the flightline. I don't know if I like the take off landing rules/points system. One part of me says just make take offs with undercarriage mandatory, but then what about the guy who folds his landing gear landing the previous run and can't fix it? The part I don't like now is that the guy who folds the gear on landing loses points, and then may lose points again if he can't change/fix the gear before the next round and has to hand launch. I'd think it's best to drop it all together.

[Bent]

I'm still trying to get my head around the observed performance of these delightful airplanes. The Dawn Patrol event on Saturday was a spectacular success except for the high attrition rate. I think in the end 7 out of 10 models experienced moderate damage with only one right off (that Nieport was on it's 9th life anyway). In my opinion the main contributing factors to the heavy losses were excessive top speeds, excessive airframe weights, and construction techniques that don't account for impact stresses. The wind may of been the wild card that day but it's better not to add it to the big picture.

I support Mike's bearing engine recommendation. There were some sweet fliers on Saturday that were heavy and used a plain bearing engine. Slowing them down will require less weight or more wing area.
I tried all kinds of props on Albatros and saw no real difference in top end speed.

It' great to part of this core group of combat flyers / designers / builders in Southern Ontario. I'm sure everyone is already thinking about how to make a better WWI bird for next year. The priority for this group is to put together a super simple, crystal clear set of building plans specifically for new WWI combat pilots. We've used all the knowledge and experience gained through WWII to get us to this point with WWI. It's wishful thinking to expect people to sit down with some coro and three views and then show up at our contests next spring. Let's pick a sweet flyin, boxy airplane and pool our talents on this. I think the D7 has the most potential.

[Bob Byrnes]

Gary: I think you have the right idea. The D7 is a good candidate. I also thought my SE 5a flew very well. It had the LA engine and was larger than most at 43 inch span. It weighed 4 pounds 10 ounces. I think having both wings being equal size and the extra wing area I had over the others with the smaller lower wing meant my SE 5a carried the weight very well. It certainly was not too difficult to build form the enlarged 3 views. I of course had a lot of you guys to lean on for advice but, all anybody has to do is ask and we will all lend our experiences. I was pleased with the impact absorption my plane displayed. The mid-air and fall to the ground did not stop me. I flew all six rounds. I did have a lot of landing gear jury rigging to do however and improvements to the undercarriage is to me the biggest hurdle left in this design. In terms of a first contest, beyond question the concept has been proven....