Slope Glider combat, full contact

[DemonFrog]

I have a Combat Wings XR which is a slope soaring glider designed to ram into others to knock em outta the air, i was wondering if anyone else does that in southern ontario? I notice that MAAC has nothing in terms ofevents of this kind or even mentions it. Am I alone???? If you want to see pictures of the combat wing i'm talking about to to www.combatwings.com
look foreward to comments critisisms or whatever
Demon :twisted:

[Patch]

I've heard of it, and I think there are a few groups out west that do it, but I haven't heard of anything around here. Sounds like fun though. I fly open B, and I'm trying to build for SSC and scale. I'm sure it will be deemed as dangerous by the combat committee, and not allowed.

[ronm]

Patch is correct, don't waste your time.
Intentionally colliding your airplanes will certainly be considered dangerous by the MAAC safety commitee.
Plus, both planes would have to land after each contact according to MAAC rules.

[Noin]

Have you guys looked at the videos of the full contact slopers that the link takes you to? This is awesome. The planes seem indestructible. There are no props to chew through the foam and the weight is so low that the epp can with stand the hits even from a full dive. This is something I will do with you if you like. Where and when and I need to make/order a plane.

Ted

[ronm]

Check the rules before you spend the money. Call your MAAC rep.

[Noin]

Why do I have to check the rules? We are no trying to set a formal competition. We just want to go out and have some fun. What does MAAC have to do with that?

[ronm]

I mention checking the rules, because intentionally colliding airplanes may contravene safety regulations. I'm not sure, I'm just trying to save you any hassle later, after you have spent the money.
You of course are free to ignore my suggestion. :)

[Noin]

I know that I can do this activity without your consent, its really hard to try and get accross through typing my intentions. I don't mean to come accross as offended or with any attitude. I am interested in what you think could result from taking part in this activity. That's why I asked the questions I did. Maybe I should try using those smiles and things to help give the correct impression of my intentions.

Any how have you watched the videos? Its really worth the few minutes it takes to sit and watch some of the videos. Quite impressive flight performance even without the impact resistance.

Ted

[ronm]

I will watch them tonight.
It sounds like fun!
Hope it is not illegal, I may want to try it myself!

[cplant]

If I'm not mistaken this is done off a slope? Since most MAAC fields are not located on slopes (for obvious reasons :D) than I would conclude that you wouldn't be engaging in this activity at a MAAC field or during a MAAC sanctioned event. Therefore I really don't think it does have anything to do with MAAC or MAAC rules, etc. However, I would assume that if there where to be an incident involving damage to property or injury than the participants would be on there own legally (no insurance).

The only thing I can see getting you into trouble is that as a MAAC member you agree to follow the MAAC safety code and item number 2 talks about not deliberately flying in a careless, reckless or dangerous manner. Some may argue that this type of combat is in violation of that. As far as I understand the safety code applies to any member regardless if they are flying at a MAAC santioned field/event or not (ie. park, local lake, etc). I don't know what if any consequences there are for violation of the membership agreement. (I wouldn't condone it though)

Maybe someone can clear this up. It does look like a lot of fun. :)

[DemonFrog]

There are annual dogfights in the states sanctioned by the AMA (required for enrty) so seeing as AMA and MAAC let you compete in either counrty i would guess that it is legal but not widely praticed :wink: therefore i think it is legal and i doubt it could really be considered dangerous or reckless as from my experience these gliders ARE INDEDTRUCTABLE i am a new "pilot" and i have learned from 3-5 second flights from throwing my glider and doing controlled crashes. I'm still looking for a location and i did ask about one in another thread in the sailplane forum. It would be interesting to have a club of people who do this like every month or so and mebeye even have MAAC sanctioned events sometime. :twisted: Meh i can hope can't I? :?: and by the way these gliders are easy to make by yourself i a 16 year old made mine with spray glue ultracote a steam iron a knife and needle nose pliers, nothing more.
Have fun
Demon
P.S. La Sierra Slam is one of the AMA events i think 8)

[lightning]

This is really close to those dreaded combat "mid-airs" that the MAAC safety and combat committees addressed earlier this year. A rule was supposed to be introduced as part of the general MAAC safety rules that all involved planes must land after a mid-air collision, no matter how minor.
Due to some ambiguity and differences of opinion in interpretation, the rule has been deferred until Jan 1st 2005 when a rewritten MAAC safety code will be introduced.
It is (only) my personal opinion, but I believe the slope/Zagi combat venues were overlooked when the rule was originally drafted.
I would strongly suggest any concerned parties contact Jim Pepperdine (jpep@telus.net), MAAC Safety chair, to inquire status or provide input. It may not be too late to get these aircraft recognised as not being a danger.
Good luck!

[ronm]

I believe the rule as written does not specify prop planes.
Unless ammended, gliders would probably be included.

[Buzz]

Well, having mentioned this with someone on the MAAC combat committee tonight at our field, I'm sure a quick amendment would be made to allow for midairs with "unpowered" planes. Common sense DOES prevail sometimes you know?

[Noin]

Is anyone aware of the possible penalties involved (if any) that M.A.A.C. could impose on a member that chooses to not adhere to the safety code?

Is anyone also aware of how the A.M.A. has dealt with this problem? Does the A.M.A. sanction slope glider combat events or are the events that take place just organized without the A.M.A.'s approval?

What possible resolutions could there be for this problem? Is it as simple as "ronm" has suggested that the new rule of forced landing after contact between 2 aircraft in flight be applied to powered aircraft only?

Does anyone see any other problems that might be reason for M.A.A.C. to have concern?

Ted

[Buzz]

Ted,
I dont want to oversimplify, but to put it in a nutshell, you're allowed to break MAAC rules whenever you want, with the understanding that anytime you do break MAAC safety rules, and become liable for any damages, MAAC insurance will not cover you, and most clubs will expel you from their club if you dont follow MAAC rules.

[Sideslip]

There are currently no official rules for slope combat. I am aware of some MAAC members out in BC zone who do slope combat with WWII foamies, but I hadn't heard of anyone else doing it until now.

Notwithstanding the comments of some posters, combat using lightweight, unpowered foam gliders would seem to be an entirely different animal from combat using 3 to 4.5 pound aircraft with glow engines... As such, should slope combat catch on, I see no reason why it should not have its own, specific, combat safety rules that are appropriate to the class.

Suffice to say that when any flying discipline becomes officially recognized by MAAC, MAAC will then have a right, and an obligation, to take a look at the discipline and ensure that it is conducted safely.

But, as Buzz commented, the combat committees do take a common sense approach to safety. Looking at the combat videos on the site mentioned above, slope combat with foam gliders does appear to be a relatively slow, and inherently safe activity.

In the meantime, the unique circumstances of slope flying, combat or otherwise, seem to me to be similar to those of parkflyers... inasmuch as the activity is somewhat off MAAC's radar... for the reasons others have mentioned.

If you have any questions about R/C combat and MAAC, you should feel free to contact either of the combat committee chairmen (Myself or Ted Banks). Slope combat does look to be a real gas, and I'd be interested in hearing about slope combat activities in Canada.

[Sideslip]

Ted,
I dont want to oversimplify, but to put it in a nutshell, you're allowed to break MAAC rules whenever you want, with the understanding that anytime you do break MAAC safety rules, and become liable for any damages, MAAC insurance will not cover you, and most clubs will expel you from their club if you dont follow MAAC rules.

Hi Buzz...

Let me just add to that a bit.

You are not allowed to break MAAC rules - indeed, we all signed our pledge to observe them on our membership applications - it's just that enforcement is on the honour system. I know that is what you mean... but I think it's better to spell it out hehe.

In addition, if a pilot doesn't follow MAAC safety rules and employ general good judgement in safe practices, he not only puts his own coverage at risk, but risks spoiling the fun for everyone else as well.

That is why responsible MAAC members always adhere to the rules in the safety code applicable to their specific flying activity, even if it isn't always to their liking.