Twin Star AP/AV

[eyeinsky]

Here's a sneak peek at the latest AP\AV ship.
Multiplex Twin star


Features:
-Std Servo's Elevator and rudder
-Dual mid Size Aileron servo, flap and spoiler mix
-large control surfaces
-dual 240 watt 2200 kv brushless, counter rotating propeller 6X4E and 6X4EP
-dual 30 ESC with 3A BEC
-2.4 GHz Video downlink
-Tilt and roll gyro stab Canon G10


http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0006.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0007.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0008.jpg

[eyeinsky]

I like this video



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELunK0AZ_4Y&feature=fvw

[tech1]

Looks like a good fit. a little more payload than the easystar and still nothing to block the camera on the front.

[WaldoPepper]

Dude, this is gettin serious! Helicopter guys switchin over to planks for AP :yikes: Can't wait to see the results of this combo in action !
Cheers :mrgreen:
Waldo

[mark_]

How exciting! That G10 looks huge on the plane but I have no doubts that it will handle it...especially with those motors? I'm suprised at the choice of props though...I thought that would have gone bigger like 8s or even 9x6s. I'm assuming that yours is the Twinstar 1...as it looks quite different than mine. I'll post a couple of pictures when I get home tonight. All my wiring is done and I'm basically waiting for motors....still. Looking forward to your reports of the Maiden!!

Great video...it's amazing how much the plane looks like a Twin Otter!

[rusty33]

Great video of the twinstar. Thanks.

[eyeinsky]

Waldo

Not converting fully my heli's will have their air time as well as the 50 foot RC pole camera setup. Kind of like the right tool for the right job. The fix wing has many advantages as well as disadvantages and the heli is the same.

Mark

Mine is the older version. I found it in a dusty old RC shop down in Wilmington Delaware. Nice old Guy, so I took it off his hands for $100US. I think it is a little larger that the V2 but not sure.

Prop?

Same prop I use on the "Clouds Fly AKA" that will climb vertically. I will counter rotate the props so that there is no torque yaw and if one motor fails there will not be a critical roll effect. The High 2200kv motor seems to produce less vibration that can be picked up on video.

Here's the stock set up comparison

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0009.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0010.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0011.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0012.jpg

[mark_]

After a painful 2 week wait my motors arrived today. I will be running these after being recomended to me. http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id=V450327&pid=B1488466 I hope they work...can't beat the price at 15 bucks! I'm looking forward to see how this ship performs!

[eyeinsky]

Here's the spec's on the motor I've chosen:

Model No.: 2212-6
Rpm/V: 2200KV
Weight: 50g
Motor Dimensions: Ф27.7*26.3mm
Shaft Size: Ф3.17*37mm
Battery Opernating: 2-3 Lipo
Idle current: 1.8A
Load current: 18.5A
Power (Watt): 240
ESC(A): 30A
Ri(M Ω): 0.03
Peak.Amps :14-22 A
Prop/recom:6x4

What is the dimention of the V2?

My spec's
Wingspan 1420mm
Fuselage 985

[mark_]

Jerry,

The plane is 110 cm fuse, that's nose to back of the elevator and 139 wingspan. So they sound pretty close in comparison.


http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/mark1album/twinstar001.jpg

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/mark1album/twinstar002.jpg

Here's a shot of the fuse and wings with the wiring octopus. Not sure how much time I'll have this weekend but it's starting to smell like a maiden!!

[mark_]

I'm interested once we get them up and start comparisons...you will have more power. I'll be running 7x4 props and with my 3700 3S, I expect flight times to be around 20 mins at half throttle.

[eyeinsky]

Nice! Mark

Are going to fly it stock first or go right into AP modifications. How do the wings mount on the fuselage? Mine is held on with nylon screws. I used them to mount my battery on top of the wing aswell. I don't want to have to remove the wing to change the batteries, so I went external.

This worked very well on the "Cloud". It looks like just enough to keep the C of G good with the G10 mounted fwd. I will put the down link inside the battery hold.

Here’s some more pics:
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0013-2.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0014-2.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0015-1.jpg

[mark_]

My wings are held on with nylon screws too but I should be able to change the battery through the canopy. I plan to do a few test flights stock before adding a camera. I would like to get a feel for the plane first and maybe even have a little fun with it. :)

What's that in the nose of yours? A downlink?

[eyeinsky]

Mark

My plan is to put just electronic in the nose downlink RX Gyros ect... Not mess with anything under the camera mount in the field just plug and go external battery quick change, one power source for all.

Interesting info: got my gyro yesterday. I installed them last night and tested today. Very successful, wind condition 20km gusting 35km not steady at all, 600g "Clouds fly" steady most of the time in pitch and roll. My buddies had there up identical condition all over the place.

Note to self; order 10 more gyros.


http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0016-2.jpg

Here a funny video: how not to fly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg8Idgxs7Ag&feature=related

[mark_]

HAA!!! That video was too funny. I laughed out loud more than once. MPX should use that for promotion as a testament to the plane's durability.

I am very interested in putting gyros or an auto pilot on my TS. I am looking forward to your flight reports.

I drove to Calgary today and picked up my props...I hope to maiden this week. With any luck my buddy can come along and shoot some video. Shooting video of a maiden is like pouring concrete...it can easily become a monument of your mistakes. :)

[mark_]

Well the ship is pretty much put together, and the motors are mounted. I ran them up in the living room...what a sound! With brushless motors this is going to be a sweet sounding bird! My biggest problem right now is all the wiring...what a dog's breakfast. Once I get it sorted out, I have a feeling that the plane will just have to be transported with the wings on.
How's your wiring Jerry...any tips?

[eyeinsky]

Mark

Great job! Post some pics of the motor mounts I would like to see what you did there. I will mount the ESC on the engine pylon because power is already available out there with the stock setup. I will tape the control wire to the bottom of the wing. The rx is mounted just under the main wing with fwd compartment access, when I remove wing simply remove throttle and aileron connection the battery power is attached to the wing topside.

maybe these pics will help
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0021.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0022.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0023.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0024.jpg

Cheers Jerry

[eyeinsky]

Here's little gem. I'm using it to get the feel of the twin setup.
I've use a separate channel per motor witch I've mix with the rudder (differential thrust). The only other flight controls are the ailevators (Delta Mix).

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0025.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0026.jpg

[mark_]

Excellent work there Jerry...thanks for the pictures, I will try to post some tonight. I had too cut the motor mounts down so they fit further back in the nacelles. The stock motors mount 'in' the nacelles but the brushless outrunner mount 'in front'...if that makes sense. For this reason the mount needs to sit back further. I also have my ESCs just behind the motors...they'll get great airflow there. Unlike your plane, my servos mount in the nose under the canopy. My 3700 3 cell seem that it will fit and give good CG just behind the canopy. I may have to slightly ballast the tail when the time comes to mount the camera. My intention is fly at least 5 flights first to get a feel for the plane.

Your little 'gem' with differential thrust looks like it must be quite a handful in the air!

[eyeinsky]

Mark

I also will saw off the engine nacelles and epoxy a plywood fire wall to mount the motor.

The "little gem" is a hand full just like flying the heli : )

Jerry

[mark_]

Jerry,

Here are some shots for your enjoyment.

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/mark1album/twinstar0022.jpg

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/mark1album/twinstar002-1.jpg

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/mark1album/twinstar004.jpg

As you can see, the main area of concern for me is the wiring octopus. This weekend I am going to see if I can arrange some type of connectors on the side of the fuse. The motor are 2212-10s from BP hobbies.

There's a few more pictures on my album.
http://s942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/mark1album/

[eyeinsky]

Thanks Mark

Here a video showing some different mods to the twin star.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ45RfBnl6E&feature=related

[mark_]

Jerry...any chance of seeing how you have run your wires? I'll be working on them this weekend, maybe with some type of connectors on the fuse to make taking the wings on and off a little easier. And then....maybe....maiden. We'll see.

[eyeinsky]

Mark

Most of wire fit into the wing; power, aileron servo wire and taped the ESC wires on the bottom of the wing. With the battery mounted on top of the wing thats two less : )
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0027-1.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0028-1.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0029-1.jpg

[mark_]

Good work Jerry...everything looks nice and neat. Thanks for the shots.

[eyeinsky]

Camera Mount
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0030-1.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0031.jpg

[tech1]

Hey, Do these fly?

[eyeinsky]

Hey, Do these fly?

HA HA! I wish I could give you an answer. I need to carry a 600g payload, double the weight of the Easy Star system.

Tech if this was a heli lifting twice the it stock weight I would not even question it : )

Cheers Jerry

[tech1]

Have you calculated wing loading to see where you sit in your flight envelope? Second is your watts per pound.

If the numbers look OK then I will be waiting for the first flight video's.

You are right the helicopter is much easier to test. You don't have to commit to the air if it doesn't feel right.

[mark_]

Mine flew for the first time yesterday. My buddy and I worked on the wiring all day. We ended up using computer DB9 connectors for the aileron servos and ESC wires...one plug for each wing. We didn't get done until 5 o'clock and it was getting dark. I managed 2 quick flights. First impressions were good but no great. Even though CG checked out (I couldn't move my battery back any further so I added 4 nickels to the tail for ballast) it was squirrly in the air. Jerry...I would put dual rates on your ailerons right off the bat). It acted tail heavy and I almost lost into some trees when it didn't want to climb when downwind. It seemed to fly better without the nickels but then it was too dark. My buddy took some video which won't be great...but I'll let know when it's posted. We'll be heading back out today. A successful maiden is always a rush!

[eyeinsky]

Have you calculated wing loading to see where you sit in your flight envelope? Second is your watts per pound.

Wing load is subject to Airfoil # and wing area. Unfortunately the manufacture of these models does not provide allot of the engineering details. Allot of my judgement when into this choice of this model. I always adjusted C of G with battery position. As far as power goes "just go big".

I will test fly it at the stock weight first and just add 150g each test till my payload is reached.

Standby for test flight video : )

[mark_]

Good luck!!

[mark_]

Finished product...without paint. I'll probably do some dark stripes under the wings...nothing fancy. I'm headed out to fly it and thought that I'd better take some pictures in case it doesn't look the same at the end of the day.:smile:

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/mark1album/TSII005.jpg

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/mark1album/TSII006.jpg

[eyeinsky]

Mark

That's awesome! Nose heavy is always good : ) I like a nice positive glide rate, you can always put a little elevator nose up trim. I'll set mine up power off sticks neutral and trim the nose up till the glide rate is stable with no porpoising.

Post some video soon.

[mark_]

Thanks Jerry.
I'm a happy camper. Flew 2 flights today...it was +1 and a little windy. I dialed in a ton of expo (%75) on the ails and elev and it really calmed the plane down. It flew well...but I still had to stay on the ball at all times with the wind. I hit full throttle for the first time and all I can say is WOW! Those little motors really put out. The vertical climb surprised me...man, can this plane haul A$$!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0-4sRmo1bU

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/mark1album/Nov28208.jpg

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/mark1album/Nov28180.jpg

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/mark1album/Nov28141.jpg

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/mark1album/Nov28118.jpg

[mark_]

:):):)

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/mark1album/Nov28100.jpg

[tech1]

Well I'll be...................it flies really well. Pretty windy in the video too.

Saw a picture of someone holding the Easystar. Both are bigger than I thought.
Thanks for the vid..

Second picture in from of the mountains is a real beautiful one.

[mark_]

Thanks Tech.
Jerry, I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts. While I can see that this plane is going to be lots of fun, I hope that it will be a good camera ship. I'm a little worried that it's too fast. Those are my impression after only 2 flights on a windy day so time will tell I guess.

[WaldoPepper]

Heh, I'll stick with my EasyStar till you guys get the kinks worked out of the next platform;) Good work guys and this is fun to follow. Like Tech,really like the second shot with those rugged mountains behind!
Cheers:mrgreen:
Waldo

[mark_]

The 3 mountains in that shot are the famous 3 sisters of Canmore.

[eyeinsky]

Hey Mark

Nice video and pics. I think that you get some nice calm day to test the slow flight ability you will be happy. This model has been noted in my research to have good slow flight ability. So I’m not worried : )
My gyro testing has uncovered slow flight advantage; like most high altitude aircraft that operate were the air is thin. It is hard to control the aircraft by hand. We must rely on the autopilot system to control the aircraft. It does a better job than the pilot.
The gyros in slow flight reacts to the pitch and roll much fast than the visual reaction of the pilot. Combined with the 0 torque roll of the counter rotating twin engine trust will give us the ability to operate high angle of attack very slow speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y1HCm0EyLc&feature=related

Tech

I compared the wing load of the 2.2 lb Clouds Fly (Easy Star) Camera ship with the wing area of 288 sq/in wing load .122oz/in. The Twin Star at 4lb with the wing area of 495sq/in wing load is .129 oz/in. The wing load of .007oz/in more on the Twin Star, that has high lift air foil design combined with the 4 times more power.

So I did the math and it has confirmed. It should fly : )

Waldo

Sure man! You can fallow us this time.


Cheers Jerry

[mark_]

Thanks for that video Jerry, pretty much proves that it has good slow speed flight abilities. Looks like it's going to be too cold to fly for the next week or so but I can't wait to head out again.

Verrry interesting that the twinstar and the easystar have very similar wing loading...that is good news.

[eyeinsky]

more pics

Landing gear on

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0033.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0034.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0035.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0036.jpg

[eyeinsky]

More pics

Landing Gear off

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0037.jpg
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0038.jpg

[unSane]

Here's some footage from my Twinstar carrying a Contour HD helmetcam in the cockpit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amXUiY9ZTso

(This was a test flight... needs the perspex platform trimming and a wind baffle ... but I was really pleased with the results which are true 720 HD. Only my second day flying an RC plane too)

Will post pix of the paint job once its dry -- it's set up as a Canadian Forces SAR Twin Otter like this:

http://www.casr.ca/101-af-cc138-twin-otter.htm

[eyeinsky]

unsane

Not bad! For a second flight. Down the road you could do a little editing to make the presentation nicer. There all kinds of software out there's, if you got "windows movie maker", that’s a good start.

here's some of my stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/user/eyeinsky1
http://www.vimeo.com/user747747/videos

Keep them coming

Cheers Jerry

[mark_]

Nice work Jerry...I really like your landing gear and camera mount bracket. Looks like the LG pops on and off with velcro, simple but effective...I like it.

Unsane : I saw your video on another forum...good quality with that camera. I checked out the Contour but was a little deterred by the price.

[mark_]

Crashed it today. Things were going well and I had been up for almost 20 minutes and was making one last circuit. I lost orientation and although I had plenty of height, I was unable to recover. The white plane on a cloudy background was a real problem for me. I filled all the pockets on my winter coat with all the 'bits' and made the walk of shame back to my car. It's all part of the hobby...right guys?

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad261/mark1album/P1050546.jpg

[WaldoPepper]

Oh, that's too bad Mark but yes it's all part and parcel of the hobby. The beauty of these foam planes is they usually repair easily. Hope you got all the pieces and this is the case for you. There's just something about scarring a new plane though. Wish you a speedy recovery!
Waldo

[eyeinsky]

Mark

Sorry to hear you had one of those days. Get the hot glue gun out and start putting it back together. It alway flys better after the first crash.

Jerry : (

[tech1]

Sorry to hear about the crash. Count it as experience.

Jerry, Excellent video up top. Looks like a powerful and stable platform. I agree with the gyro's. If you are carrying a camera they will give that extra level of smoothness that your fingers can't.

[mark_]

Thanks guys, I do have a project in front of me now.
Jerry, it's up to you as I'll be on the sidelines watching for a bit.

[eyeinsky]

Got my motors today, weather sucks, not sure when the first test will be.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb8/eyeinsky/IMG_0047-1.jpg

[mark_]

Awesome! This is getting exciting!

[eyeinsky]

Still waiting for better weather. 70 km winds today :(

[eyeinsky]

Test Flight

fJmSEYo_yjU

[mark_]

Woohoo! Congrats on a great maiden Jerry.
My props made a similar sound too at anything over half throttle...I tried balancing but it only seemed slightly better. Mine was super twitchy too before the crash...decreasing the throws helped for me.

[eyeinsky]

Woohoo! Congrats on a great maiden Jerry.
My props made a similar sound too at anything over half throttle...I tried balancing but it only seemed slightly better. Mine was super twitchy too before the crash...decreasing the throws helped for me.

Thank Mark

Found out what the prop noise was. I had to set the ESC timing to "high". Now she much quieter!

Super twitchy, Yup! Nothing we can't tone down with radio setting. I can't wait to get the gyro on it.
My new props came in today, CCW on the left and CW on the right. This will give me"0" torque from the props now. I should be able to slow it right down till she stall if she start to drop the nose just give it a little gas and she will climb out.

Cheers Jerry

[mark_]

Can you explain about the ESC timing? I hope to get her back in the air someday....

[eyeinsky]

Timing or frequency

Most programmable ESC have selectable setting; brake,battery,voltage cut, timing...

Timing setting has most often three setting: Low, med, high

Low for 1 to 3 pole motors
Med for 4 to 6 pole motors
High for 7 and up pole motors

Hope this helps.

Jerry

[tech1]

Great job. Looks like it flies really well at low throttle. It should support some more weight.

[mark_]

Thanks Jerry.
Did you get my email?

[eyeinsky]

Testing is coming along, another successful flight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaXJ0aMWn0k

[mark_]

Good job! Do you think that it will glide well for taking pictures?
Nice landing Jerry...show off.

[eyeinsky]

Gyros installed testing successful

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ICAqtkMxn4

[unSane]

I put Turnigy 380 gyros in my TSII today and it was a stunning success! Amazing stability in 20 km/h winds. I set them to about 75% sensitivity on pitch and roll axes. Not bad for $18 gyros.

[WaldoPepper]

Looks very stable Jerry, good job!
Cheers!
Waldo

[eyeinsky]

Twin Star down:(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEiaLISdCX4

Not to bad the nose came off. A little glue and we are back in business.

[mark_]

Ouch sorry to see that Jerry. I hope the camera was ok too. My Twinstar has had a nose job too and looks a little like Mike Tyson. Any speculation there? I find that the plane stalls easily and it looked like that might have happened in a low speed turn. Looking forward to some video with gyros. Where do you order them from for 18 bucks?

[eyeinsky]

Mark

Yup stall it with no alt. way behind the curve with extra 300 g on board. Stupid:) Had I not been so slow to react I could have just power out.

No problem taking the weight tough nice and slow flight too.

I think that there some I may try at HK these have temp comp not like the PG-03 alway have to trim for temp change. Not huge issue though. Stadby it post them

It is all fix now :)

Jerry

[mark_]

Glad to hear that it's all back together now...don't you hate it when you run out of a altitude, airspeed and ideas all at the same time?!

[mark_]

I have to ask...did you give up on the Twinstar for AP?

[eyeinsky]

I have to ask...did you give up on the Twinstar for AP?

Yup and I'm going to keep the G10 on the heli. I just find the pusher a better system. She nice flying unit and I will have to keep it for playing.

Cheers Jerry