[Dave Larkin]

Joe,

The Feds make the rules. But you can scan the Closed proxy, with your votes on it, make a PDF file and send that to the site of the AGM for your Zone Director.

[4*60]

Quote:My simplistic approach would be to follow what happens in corporate voting The motion is spelled out on the proxie form along with the boards recommendation to accept or reject. This is then sent in and counted and that's it.

Overall I am happy that automatic open proxies will be a thing of the past.

Jeff Unquote

Jeff, so am I.

That is not quite what happens in Corporate Canada but close. That is one way you can handle it, but there is ALWAYS the ability to appoint a member of the board to vote your proxy the way they see fit. You sign your rights over to them just as you would at MAAC.

I will quit discussing this any further because I can't believe the comments here. Has anyone ever been to any other AGM except MAAC or even to the MAAC AGM. I am only 56 years old and I have been to many AGM's and the Open proxy as now stated and the closed proxy as now stated, and not the representing of all zone members by the zone director, is the way things are done. PERIOD. As a shareholder in CDN and US corporations I have often signed over my proxy through the return I receive and then often not because I know my vote is not needed and management has the quorum required most times.

Check with the Soaring Assoc of Canada, the Winnipeg Gliding Club, the TD BANK, the Regina Gliding Club, the Alberta Soaring Council, the Cu-Nim Gliding Club, The South Shuswap Communities Society, the Fifity 567 Chevy Club. the Air Cadet League, etc. etc. etc.
Sorry I couldn't resist but all these organizations operate(d) the same way at an AGM and many thousands more do also. Just because you have it in your head that things are not right doesn't mean you can circumvent the law. Pulease!

[Morison]

4*60,
I am not actually suggesting that Automatic open proxies to the directors are a good thing - all I am saying is that all of the information to the members says that this is the way the decisions will be made, and how their voices will be heard.
This has been changed, taking away a default open proxy to their ZD, with NO NOTICE.

This year You WILL have members that assumed their vote went with the director by default who end up not voting at all ... and not even being aware of it. That is simply not right.

[Dave Larkin]

Keith,

Whether it is right or not is simply immaterial. The Government has chosen to say that the answer to the question as to whether we can use the automatic open proxy method is not only "No" but "Hell No!" Rightly or wrongly, we asked the question and now we have to live with the answer.

I'm not clear yet what the situation is with respect to the regular Open Proxies. We now know that the Government would prefer that these say the the proxy holder has the right to use the proxy as he pleases, but I would have thought that was completely obvious before. I just don't see the problem. What on earth do they think some one is going to do with an open proxy .... throw a dice?

As to the question of notice, I would have thought that ZDs could get the word out to their flock. Except I think that they, too, are so bemused that they don't want to say anything.

[Morison]

Dave, the language on the open proxy form is EXTREMELY clear.
the holder must voye the proxy the way he best beleives thegiver would want it voted. the key words being 'vote on my behalf'

Remember that a member chooses the person they are giving an open proxy to ... it isn't a matter of selecting a stranger. I can and would select someone that I feel can make an educated guess about my desires on an issue ...

and again I UNDERSTAND that we can't do the 'automatic proxy' thing anymore. That leaves the question of how do we best serve the members democratic rights at this AGM?

Basically - allow open proxies to be executed individually, not all in the same way as the holder votes, and do not allow ANY amendments

(you should note that the ONLY reason someone woudl vote a proxy against their own vote would be to represent teh ideas of someone they disagree with ... not allowing soneone to vote some proxis against their own vote takes away the basic democratic right of teh holder if he wants tio truly vote on behlalf of teh giver or the giver if the holder is forced to use the proxies only with his vote)

And Dave, it DOES matter what is right when it comes to dealing with issues. (we can't just say we were following orders from Corporations Canada) Ultimately the AGM can't really pass any resolutions beyond what it takes to keep teh doors open. (I don't think there is anything earth shattering on the table.)

[jdiprofio]

Sounds like we should send a link to this thread to Carl and let him explain, or sort it out... Then we can all take a break on this one... :coffee:


Joe

[messacar]

Perhaps I can make a point in this discussion thriugh the use of an exageration.

First of all, I'm not opposed to the simple spelling and gramatical error corrections caused by mis typing etc.

Let's assume that the resolution reads: "Be it resolved: MAAC is to develop a flying 500 acre flying site at a cost of $500.000.00". (Please don;t rag on this, it's only n example). Lets also assume that the current voting membership of MAAC is 8000 persons.

Now the AGM comes along and 10 persons attend the meeting holding a total of 7500 closed proxies including their own votes "against" this resolution.

This resolution is now raised on the AGM floor and a minor change to correct a typo error is made changing the $5000,000.00 to #5,000,000.00.

This change most certainly does not change the intent of the resolution, thus under the minor change umbrella is still completely acceptable.

The process that I have heard on the bulletin board is that all of the closed proxies are discarded and the vote continues. Let's just say that the 13 zone directors vote for the resolution but the 10 attendees vote against it. Under this scenario, the vote "for" is passed with a majority.

It just doesn't seem democratic, to me, that a minor change such as this typo error allows a resolution which is clearly opposed, to pass.

What do you think???

Fred

[nagool]

MAKE it STOP!

.........hey, who brought this to the attention of the Government Anyway?

If we've been getting on fine for so many years as it was, what brought on this sudden need to complicate everything?

Call me curious.

[jdiprofio]

Perhaps High Speed INTERNET....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Could not resist Jason......


Joe

[Dave Larkin]

Keith, I don't see any specific direction in the words "on my behalf'. And practically, in most cases, the proxy holder, as Jeff Helps so rightly said, will have no clue what is in the mind of the individual who handed over the proxy. A substantial number of "open" proxies are collected at the club level and forwarded to the person attending the meeting, usually, but not necessarily the Zone Director. It's quite unlikely that he even knows the person who signed the proxy, and they may not know him.

If a person has specific views on the issues, then it would only be logical for him to sign a "closed' proxy and only a "closed" proxy. As it is, a lot of people sign off on proxies only to ensure that their representative has some of the voting rights to which they feel he should be entitled (to represent his zone membership), and probably haven't even looked at the motions that are being put forward. I have been to several club meetings lately and at none of them has there been any discussion of the Resolutions. All they seem to be worried about is how best to implement the new safety rules. And I know that there are a few members who feel very strongly against dues increases, but so far they've said nothing.

I doubt very much if most members know what goes on at the AGM wekend:
- First, a meeting of the Executive to get their ducks in a row, (on Thursday)
- Second, the Board meets on the Friday and Saturday to go over the Resolutions and Recommendations, and conduct most of the business, including the budget, and reviews the Committee reports. The Board meeting may carry over to Sunday morning if things haven't gone too well!
- Thirdly the Board elects the Secretary/Treasurer and Executive.
- Fourthly (on Sunday afternoon) comes the public part the AGM at which the new Executive is introduced and the Board (generally speaking) hopes its decisions will be rubber-stamped, and that they don't get hung out to dry. This is the opportunity for the members to speak their minds and ask questions, apart from voting. And because each Zone Director carries the same number of votes (1) at the Board Meeting but did carry different numbers of votes (and potentially still may carry different numbers of votes) at the AGM, the possibility exists that decisions made at the Board meeting may be changed at the AGM.