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Aerial Photography/Video Discuss and exchange ideas about aerial photography and video in Canada. |
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03-26-2012, 12:27 PM | #1 |
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FPV in Canada according to ^Industry Canada^
Well, just got off the phone with a radio inspector from Industry Canada. I wanted to better understand the regulations, or requirements to operate a video downlink used in an FPV setup.
What I found out I didn't expect.... All equipment regardless of use or frequency must be RSS210 compliant. Anologue, Digital, makes no difference. It cannot be used in canada without that minimum standards compliance. The upshot is that if it is compliant, then a HAM operators license is not required either. Now Please understand, this is only after my first call, not that I expect the story to change, but this won't be the last call, if you know what I mean. I encourage you guys to phone your local/provincial industry canada office and ask to speak to a radio inspector and ask these questions. I want to know if the fella I was speaking to really understood what I was getting at. He seemed to....but he didn't always listen carefully. He made it clear that HAM operators license was a seperate issue....which is what gives me the idea he wasn't listening fully. But perhaps he is right. I want to be able to have fun, I want to FPV so bad I can taste it, but causing channel interference is not my goal, and without special equipment you can't often tell if you are causing interference on adjacent channels for instance. I am a by the rules kind of guy because operating this gear may affect more then just me, however sometimes you just want to live a little and have some fun. The inspector made it clear that it's not hard to track people down, however he did admit that if operating for 20 min intermitantly, it might be a little harder. I suggest not flying behind your vehicle with your license plate showing HA!! Anyhow guys, chime in. Let's get this figured out. I want to do FPV perhaps we can get the right answers. I am tired of guessing, let's get to the bottom of it so others don't need to worry and can have fun. Last edited by Magnumb; 03-26-2012 at 01:09 PM. |
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03-26-2012, 12:31 PM | #2 |
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Re: Talked to Industry Canada RE: Video Downlink
Ok, I contacted a really good guy who sells FPV gear IN CANADA, this is what I heard.
Tim, <<thats me unfortunately you will find that if you talk to two different people from IC, then you hear 2 different things on what is right and what is wrong. However he is wrong - I as a HAM licensee with advanced license, I can build a transmitter and I can use it LEGALLY even if it is not IC or FCC compliant - as long as I can demonstrate that it broadcasts on the HAM frequency bands and within the HAM power regulations. This is in the amateur licensing code, and no matter what an IC person tells you this is correct. So any transmitter where you are certain it transmits within the HAM bands and you have a HAM license to use it - you are safe. But thanks for letting me know the below discussion, I have heard several stories like this before. Last edited by Magnumb; 03-26-2012 at 02:16 PM. |
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03-26-2012, 01:01 PM | #3 |
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Re: Talked to Industry Canada RE: Video Downlink
The Plot thickens:
Talked to another Industry Canada Radio Inspector about the issue. Unlike the last one, this guy listened to me a bit better. The following frequencies: 900mhz range 1.3 - 1.35Ghz and 5.8Ghz are all license free bands. This means that to operate on them you don't need a HAM license, however because it is license free everything operating in those ranges must have an RSS210 certification. (no FPV gear that I know of has that certification) 1280 Mhz is a secondary band and does require a HAM license. This is good, this means that while you DO require the HAM the equipment doesn't require RSS210 certification. The bands I mentioned above are the only ranges I spoke to him about, I did not have in front of me the full spectrum of freq ranges that FPV gear operates on so I couldn't confirm any other freq within those ranges that may also be considered HAM. The guy I spoke to also said that 1280 is allocated so there is unlikely to ever be a change. I must admit I am surprised by this information as well. it's not shaping up how I would have expected at all. I will keep at it. Please I encourage you guys reading this to phone your local Industry Canada radio inspectors and see what you can find out. With the information I have posted so far you should be able to have enough/context to get to the meat of the issue. So to sum it up. It appears that of the Freq's I listed above (which is not all of them) only thge 1280 is valid with a HAM and no RSS210 certification. Here is a listing of Industry Canada offices. I have gotten through to a Radio Inspector on both occasions I have phoned. Western Region Manitoba District Office 4th Floor 400 St. Mary Avenue Winnipeg MB R3C 4K5 Telephone: 1-800-665-3421 Fax: 204-984-6045 Email: spectrum.winnipeg.district@ic.gc.ca Central and Northern Alberta District Office Room 725, Canada Place 9700 Jasper Avenue Edmonton AB T5J 4C3 Telephone: 1-800-461-2646 Fax: 780-495-6501 Email: spectrum.edmonton@ic.gc.ca Southern Alberta District Office Room 400 639 Fifth Avenue S.W. Calgary AB T2P 0M9 Telephone: 1-800-267-9401 Fax: 403-292-4295 Email: spectrum.calgary@ic.gc.ca Saskatchewan District Regina Office Room 600 1945 Hamilton Street Regina SK S4P 2C7 Telephone: 1-877-510-7875 Fax: 306-780-6506 Email: spectrum.regina@ic.gc.ca Saskatoon Office 7th Floor 123 2nd Avenue South Saskatoon SK S7K 7E6 Telephone: 1-877-783-7757 Fax: 306-975-4231 Email: spectrum.saskatoon@ic.gc.ca Northwest Territories and Nunavut (Administered by Saskatoon Office) 7th Floor 123 2nd Avenue South Saskatoon SK S7K 7E6 Telephone: 1-877-783-7757 Fax: 306-975-4231 Email: spectrum.saskatoon@ic.gc.ca Interior British Columbia and Yukon District: Okanagan-Kootenay Office Room 603 1726 Dolphin Avenue Kelowna BC V1Y 9R9 Telephone: 250-470-5026 or 1-800-667-3780 Fax: 250-470-5045 Email: kelowna.district@ic.gc.ca Northern British Columbia and Yukon Office Room 203 280 Victoria Street Prince George BC V2L 4X3 Telephone: 250-561-5291 or 1-800-667-3780 Fax: 250-561-5290 Email: princegeorge.district@ic.gc.ca Yukon Field Office Room 205 300 Main Street Whitehorse YT Y1A 2B5 Telephone: 867-667-5102 Fax: 867-393-6711 Email: jeff.stanhope@ic.gc.ca Coastal British Columbia District: Lower Mainland Office Suite 1700 13401 - 108 Avenue Surrey BC V3T 5V6 Tel: 604-586-2521 Fax: 604-586-2528 Email: vancouver.district@ic.gc.ca Vancouver Island Office Room430 1230 Government Street Victoria BC V8W 3M4 Tel: 250-363-3803 Fax: 250-363-0208 Email: victoria.district@ic.gc.ca Quebec Region Quebec Regional Office 7th Floor 5 Place Ville-Marie Montréal QC H3B 2G2 Telephone: 514-496-1797 or 1-888-237-3037 Fax: 514-283-5157 Email: spectre.region.quebec@ic.gc.ca (By appointment only) Western Quebec District Office Montréal Service Centre Spectrum Management 8th Floor 5 Place Ville-Marie Montréal QC H3B 2G2 Telephone: 514-496-1797 or 1-888-237-3037 Fax: 514-283-7035 Email: spectre.region.quebec@ic.gc.ca (By appointment only) Gatineau Service Centre Room 222 975 Saint-Joseph Boulevard Gatineau QC J8Z 1W8 Telephone: 1-888-237-3037 Fax: 819-953-8164 Email: spectre.region.quebec@ic.gc.ca (By appointment only) Val d’Or Service Centre 380 Lamaque Boulevard P.O. Box 695 Val d’Or QC J9P 4P6 Telephone: 1-888-237-3037 Fax: 819-824-8054 Email: spectre.region.quebec@ic.gc.ca (By appointment only) Eastern Quebec District Office Quebec Service Centre 702-1550 d’Estimauville Avenue Québec QC G1J 0C4 Telephone: 514-496-1797 or 1-888-237-3037 Fax: 514-283-5157 Sherbrooke Service Centre Room 600 2665 King Street West Sherbrooke QC J1L 2G5 Telephone: 1-888-237-3037 Fax: 819-564-5541 Email: spectre.region.quebec@ic.gc.ca (By appointment only) Atlantic and Ontario Region New Brunswick/Prince Edward Island District Office 3rd Floor Customs Building 189 Prince William Street Saint John NB E2L 2B9 Telephone: 506-636-4889 or 1-888-843-4133 Fax: 506-636-4339 Email: SaintJohn.District@ic.gc.ca (By appointment only) Nova Scotia District Office 50 Brown Avenue Dartmouth NS B3B 1X8 Telephone: 902-426-3810 or 1-888-385-8848 Fax: 902-426-1000 Email: Dartmouth.district@ic.gc.ca (By appointment only) Newfoundland and Labrador District Office P.O. Box 8950 10th Floor John Cabot Building 10 Barter’s Hill St. John’s NL A1B 3R9 Telephone: 709-772-4889 or 1-888-288-4480 Fax: 709-772-4890 Email: St.John_s.District@ic.gc.ca (By appointment only) Toronto District Office Room 909 55 St. Clair Avenue East Toronto ON M4T 1M2 Telephone: 416-973-8215 Fax: 416-954-3553 Email: spectrum.toronto@ic.gc.ca Hours of operations: 8:30 a.m. - 4:30 p.m. (By appointment only) Central and Western Ontario District Suite 201 390 Brant Street Burlington, ON. L7R 4J4 Telephone: 519-457-4826 Fax: 905-639-6551 Email: spectrum.cwod@ic.gc.ca Hours of Operation: 8:30 a.m. - 4:30 p.m. (By appointment only) Eastern and Northern Ontario District 2 Queen Street East Sault Ste. Marie ON P6A 1Y3 Telephone: 705-941-4139 Fax: 705-941-4607 Email: spectrum.sault-ste-marie@ic.gc.ca Hours of Operation: 8:30 a.m. - 4:30 p.m. (By appointment only) |
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03-26-2012, 01:19 PM | #4 |
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Re: FPV in Canada according to ^Industry Canada^
Thanks for the information.
I would be in total agreement to your Post #3 in accordance to the frequency slots. My next question would be " what exactly is RSS210 certification? And who is it certified by? Is it by the IEEE (Electronic and Electrical Engineer's Association standards)? Does it mean that the center frequencies for both the Tx and Rx along with a certain bandwidth have been verified? |
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03-26-2012, 01:32 PM | #5 |
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Re: FPV in Canada according to ^Industry Canada^
@Cassat
I think you would likely be hitting the nail on the head, essentially they are setting minimum standards for equipment (analogue or digital) operating in this range to prevent frequency bleed etc (exactly what you mentioned) my guess is that they are "getting the kids off of the street". The US equivalent standard would be FCC (part something). What's funny is I ordered a 5.8Ghz setup. I just canceled the order until I get this sorted. I am not truly worried they would ever find me. I don't think unless I was causing significant issues for other band users that it would ever happen, but I DO know that I am not going to have much fun with this if I am always looking over my shoulder either. I want to know that I am in the right in this instance, then I don't need to worry about it. |
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03-26-2012, 01:36 PM | #6 |
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Re: FPV in Canada according to ^Industry Canada^
If you are into a really boring and dry read see this link:
This explains the RSS210 standard. What I don't get is that it is refered to as low power. Not sure what High power is classified as (haven't done the HAM course yet) but it seems that no matter what if you are on this frequency, then the equpment is subject to this minimum standard, and yet the operator is not subject to any standard at all. So all in all I think the gentleman I spoke to from a Canadian FPV gear retailer is correct. I think the confusion comes in when devining what the HAM freq ranges are. To be honest, they are not what I thought. So perhaps someone can post the HAM frequency ranges here? The ones I thought to be HAM are/or are in part, license free....so a clear understanding of the HAM ranges would solve a lot of issues for us here. Seems odd to me. BTW I am new here, I have been lurking for a long time. Figured if I am going to contribute might as well be on an issue that *for the moment* is near and dear to my heart...and anyone else who is doing FPV or wants to do it. Cheers Last edited by Magnumb; 03-26-2012 at 02:19 PM. |
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03-26-2012, 02:29 PM | #7 |
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Re: FPV in Canada according to ^Industry Canada^
this is not correct:
"The following frequencies: 900mhz range 1.3 - 1.35Ghz and 5.8Ghz are all license free bands. This means that to operate on them you don't need a HAM license, however because it is license free everything operating in those ranges must have an RSS210 certification. (no FPV gear that I know of has that certification)" RSS210 refers to Frequency hopping, Digital Spread Spectrum, if you find in there that all ANALOG transmissions are allowed please let me know. All FPV transmitters are ANALOG, no DSS, no FH nothing is digital about it, and as such are not included in RSS210. Sorry to bring you the bad news - but you need a valid Ham license even if you use the above bands. |
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03-26-2012, 02:53 PM | #8 |
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Re: FPV in Canada according to ^Industry Canada^
If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? DING DING DING
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03-26-2012, 02:55 PM | #9 | |
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Re: FPV in Canada according to ^Industry Canada^
Quote:
In my conversations weather it was digital or not made no difference. This is what I was told. The frequency it's used on is a different issue than the modulation that's used. (correct me if I am wrong) This means that while a device may use digital modulation on that frequency, the frequency itself is still anologue. This means that if your device anologue or digital uses 910Mhz, it's on a license free band and does not require a HAM license (at those power levels under RSS210) so operating on that frequency with a HAM license even at a higher power level is operating on a frequency that requires RSS210 no matter what. Interesting eh? Though I doubt this is the last word on it, I think that one way or the other we will get to the bottom of it. I talked to another Radio Inspector, what is said above seems to hold true, though we may not have the full scope of the issues worked out. Another interesting point is that Transmitters that are locked down in the US for a certain frequency don't necessarily need to be locked down for Canada to. Again I am not stating fact, just what I am concluding from casual conversation. Essentially if you can get a transmitter that will operate on serveral frequencies in the band and set it to a HAM Freq, then you should be good to go. So the practice of locking down a transmitter coming into the US to a certain channel doesn't necessarily make sense here. Again take all of this with a big grain of salt. What I would like is to get a Radio Inspector to chime in on this conversation. If we can get the rules locked down, problem solved, this could mean no more postulating, interpreting and guessing at what we should, could, or shouldn't do. This might end up being the most complete FPV thread there is as far as operating rules etc. let's home we can get the answers. |
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03-26-2012, 03:00 PM | #10 | |
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Re: FPV in Canada according to ^Industry Canada^
Quote:
The problem is that you never know the interference you are causing to other people, not without a lot of money and expensive equipment. I don't think this really is much of an issue for someone out in the sticks. I agree, no one will hear that tree, but I am around a major centre, as such it's in my interest to figure this out. Some of these frequencies are near enough to aviation frequencies that I want to be sure as I know I wouldn't want to be the cause of an issue. I doubt anyone will blow up, I doubt anyone will crash and die, but interupting communications, getting fined etc = not fun. I supposed I am cautious as well because I have seen what happens when someone has a stuck mic or someone spams the wrong channel. It's not pretty...though it can be entertaining ;o) Granted that's a different issue and cause, but the effect can be the same. Ironically it's 1280 that's closes to aviation passive radar frequencies (I believe) but if you have your Ham license you are good to go. Just covering my butt. |
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