[samsrc]

It's unfortunate that things like this happen. Whether it be in a contest such as the Canadian Nats, or just Sunday flying at your local field. The sad part is that midairs do happen, and it's part of our sport. Bill and I just happened to want to own the same bit of airspace, and neither one of us won the battle...laughs
In IMAC, we generally have two airplanes up in the air at once going back and forth doing their sequences. Many times we cross paths, and usually our spotters are the ones to tell us...Hey! you/he/she is getting close...move, or call an avoidence. Simple!, right?

Wrong!

Stuff like this happens! and as Bill says, there is no easy way to avoid it. I was in the middle of a one and half roll on a down line, and Bill was flying across on a horizontal doing his thing. There was no way that myself, Bill, Frank, or my caller (Helmut) could in a million years say...Hey!, better move or your will hit. It just happened, and that's that!
But the question does come up in that although we colided out of bad luck, how do we prevent this in the future? Over the course of the weekend we had two seperate midairs, plus another just a few weeks back in Chatham. (not to mention other crashes due to other circumstances) Stuff like that shouldn't happen, or at least not that often. Perhaps they're some things we can do to prevent this stuff from happening in the future? I'm not sure...but it is something that we should all maybe look at and see if we can come up with some sort of solution. I know that when I first started in IMAC many years ago, I was told at the begining of the contest that all flyers on the right pilot station (Basic, Sportsman, Int) were to keep their flight line in as close as possible to themselves, and that the left line (Advanced, Unlimited) were to keep their flight line a little further out so that they would never intersect while flying. It seemed to work, and I don't remember ever seeing a midair happen back then.
Granted, we don't have that many midairs in this sport, but to have three in the last few weeks, gives me concern that maybe we should have a closer look at this...

Just some thoughts
Sam

Originally Posted by Billpilotca

Very regretably my plane tried to occupy the same airspace as Sam's Yak. I know in my case, Frank, who was calling for me, was doing an excellent job of trying to track Sam's plane and tell me to come in or go out and was giving me that guidance all through the sequence. Frank and I were both devastated and totally dismayed that the planes collided.

In our situation, I was flying horizontal and Sam was coming down vertical from a humpty (I believe). We were not crossing back and forth in this case. All that said it is sometimes very difficult in a 3 dimensional air space to make that split second decision to avoid or bail out and also which direction to go when you do avoid (right, left, up or down). It happens so darn fast. I dare say there are many air chair flyers saying we should have done this or that but in the heat of the moment, in a 3 dimensional space we suffered a tragic outcome.

Even the next day when directions were given for the Advanced and Unlimited classes to try and fly out and the Basic and Sportsman guys to fly in, I saw 3-4 fairly near misses. I know I am giving this some serious thought as to what we can do to minimize these problems.

I want to publicy thank Sam for being as gracious and philosophical as he was over the terrible loss of his plane. I certainly wish there had been a different outcome.

[50%300SFlyer]

Originally Posted by samsrc

It's unfortunate that things like this happen. Whether it be in a contest such as the Canadian Nats, or just Sunday flying at your local field. The sad part is that midairs do happen, and it's part of our sport. Bill and I just happened to want to own the same bit of airspace, and neither one of us won the battle...laughs
In IMAC, we generally have two airplanes up in the air at once going back and forth doing their sequences. Many times we cross paths, and usually our spotters are the ones to tell us...Hey! you/he/she is getting close...move, or call an avoidence. Simple!, right?

Wrong!

Stuff like this happens! and as Bill says, there is no easy way to avoid it. I was in the middle of a one and half roll on a down line, and Bill was flying across on a horizontal doing his thing. There was no way that myself, Bill, Frank, or my caller (Helmut) could in a million years say...Hey!, better move or your will hit. It just happened, and that's that!
But the question does come up in that although we colided out of bad luck, how do we prevent this in the future? Over the course of the weekend we had two seperate midairs, plus another just a few weeks back in Chatham. (not to mention other crashes due to other circumstances) Stuff like that shouldn't happen, or at least not that often. Perhaps they're some things we can do to prevent this stuff from happening in the future? I'm not sure...but it is something that we should all maybe look at and see if we can come up with some sort of solution. I know that when I first started in IMAC many years ago, I was told at the begining of the contest that all flyers on the right pilot station (Basic, Sportsman, Int) were to keep their flight line in as close as possible to themselves, and that the left line (Advanced, Unlimited) were to keep their flight line a little further out so that they would never intersect while flying. It seemed to work, and I don't remember ever seeing a midair happen back then.
Granted, we don't have that many midairs in this sport, but to have three in the last few weeks, gives me concern that maybe we should have a closer look at this...

Just some thoughts
Sam

Those are some very good points and observations Sam! I too witnessed a number of close calls, [potential mid airs] and I was only there judging on the Saturday.

One cannot but help wonder if the "Zoneless box" is at least partially to blame. Back when we flew the 3 zoned box, each pilot on each flight line kept all the maneuvers in a defined area, especially in the centre box. Judges and pilots knew exactly where to place the maneuvers. With zoneless, pilots can and do place maneuvers just about anywhere they want. Also, I seem to recall the two flight stations were spread apart a bit more than I saw on Saturday as well.

Again, sorry to hear about all the damaged aircraft guys.

[Tyler P]

Wow. That is a lot of carnage! I'm really sorry to hear about everyone's planes! I saw a couple close calls at the Ottawa contest too, where avoidance had to be called.

I think where it becomes even harder is that not all the planes are the same size. A 50cc or smaller plane will look a lot further out than it really is, so it's not always really easy to judge the airspace between planes.

My condolences to all involved.

[Frank Klenk]

Mike and Ralph, you guys pulled it off and did a fine job! We had almost 4 days of flying, life doesn't get any better than that.
To all the volunteers I sincerely thank you for your hard work so we could play. You all deserve trophies.
The banquet was very nice. But a lot prizes went to one table... What's up with that? LOL!
It was a busy weekend, I came home tired, but glad I did not miss this weekend.

The accidents had everyone upset. I'm wracking my brain trying to figure out what were we doing wrong? I don't know. I do agree with Sam that we need to figure this out.

[Billpilotca]

Originally Posted by Frank Klenk

The accidents had everyone upset. I'm wracking my brain trying to figure out what were we doing wrong? I don't know. I do agree with Sam that we need to figure this out.

I agree Frank. Somehow we need to turn this mishap into some practical constructive suggestions and recommendations to try to minimize future occurences. In my mind you were doing everything you could reasonably do as a caller to keep me aware of where Sam was. None of us could believe the collision but it happened so darn fast.

Lot of factors can come into play in these situations, who is flying in, who is flying out, maintaining constant lines etc. Keep in mind there was a fairly stiff wind quartering from behind requiring quite a bit of rudder correction to stay on line, we were getting blown out and had to keep ruddering in. As Sam said, "think it's easy ---- wrong"!

I noticed something else while I was judging on Sunday, often we end up with overlapping pilots from each flight line changing their relative line depths ie what I mean is that you can start your sequence with one pilot from the other line in the air part way through their sequence, they then finish and are replaced by a different pilot starting their sequence. Different pilots tend to fly different depths so even if you think you are flying a comfortable spacially separated line at the start of your sequence that can suddenly change when a new pilot starts their routine.

I heard some suggestions re the alternate sequences in the upper classes are changing the flying patterns such that the depth of the box for them is much shallower and they are therefore spending more time in a similar flight "plane" to the lower classes. Maybe a factor.

At the same time, Jim D, Frank and I flew in Michigan in June and because there were 14 Sportsman pilots they divided the group and we flew back to back rounds changing to the other set of judges. Considering we were all flying the same known Sportsman sequence we did manage to stay away from each other and there were no mishaps.

Lots to think about and digest

[scaleguy]

Originally Posted by Billpilotca

At the same time, Jim D, Frank and I flew in Michigan in June and because there were 14 Sportsman pilots they divided the group and we flew back to back rounds changing to the other set of judges. Considering we were all flying the same known Sportsman sequence we did manage to stay away from each other and there were no mishaps.

Lots to think about and digest

Bill,

This was the scenario at Flying Tigers when Ward and had the mid-air. I had to run double flightlines of Sportsman to keep the contest going while we straightened aout Advance and Unlimited switching to the Alternate sequencess. We to also had a strong quartering wind from behind which blew both of us out further then we should have.

[Billpilotca]

Originally Posted by scaleguy

Bill,

This was the scenario at Flying Tigers when Ward and had the mid-air. I had to run double flightlines of Sportsman to keep the contest going while we straightened aout Advance and Unlimited switching to the Alternate sequencess. We to also had a strong quartering wind from behind which blew both of us out further then we should have.

Sorry Jim - yes you are right of course. Seems to me that this might have to start with some strictly adhered to rules about flying in and out, or at least trying to maintain separation and if the lines get anywhere near to each other a break is called and the pilots are told to realign themselves.

Maybe what we need in large contests is a "line judge", separate from the other judges who is given the clear authority to blow an air horn or whistle, pilots immediately discontinue their sequence and are told they need to reorient themselves and achieve lines with clear separation etc.

I don't know, maybe a separate line judge is crazy. We just need to think out of the box (pardon that expression) to bring added safety to the sport.

[goneflyin]

As Sam and Bill said, a good solution could be to have the 2 upper classes flying out, and the others flying in.
The key however will be that everyone needs to know- pilots, judges, callers all need to know and be on the same page.
You will then have 8 pairs of eyes catching errors in flight path, (more if there are scribes that watch the flight) and a much better probability of preventing a midair.

Don

[Frank Klenk]

Hi Bill

Just a quick comment about the Jackson contest. Yes, we flew 2 sportsman lines at the same time and all was well. That said I do find flying at Jackson much easier than other fields. The tree line gives us a very good visual. One pilot flies on top of the trees and the other on the inside of the trees. Not having that visual aid makes it difficult for all.

[haste232]

First I would like to thank Mike and Ralph and all the volunteers for all the work they put over the weekend. We all had a great time, regardless of the mishaps.
Like everyone, I noticed that there was a lot of close calls besides the mid airs. These events, in my humble opinion will increase as more pilots fly bigger, similar 40-42 % planes in all the classes. There is a natural tendency for same size planes tend to be flown the same distance out. Maybe the guys on the IMAC sequence committee can keep this in mind when designing next years sequences. Remembering that the most likely collisions will be unlimited, advanced, versus intermediate, sportsman, the sequence designers need to take this into account. i.e more cross box manuevers in unlimited and advanced instead of just one in the sequence. There can also be more variation in height where the maneuvers take place, i.e. higher classes can have more of the maneuvers on the higher lines, and opposite for the others, to minimize the time the different classes will spend in similar areas of the sky. No big 45 lines in the middle, these are notorious for close calls because your peripheral awareness is minimized, keep them to the ends. Just some thoughts.
Cheers
Tsai