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Old 08-08-2012, 07:33 AM   #11
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Re: Scale Short Kits

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Kudos for your balanced view of the issue Dave and I hope that the investigation regarding the alleged "non delivery" works out as it should.

I'm sure that Admin is struggling with this one as well, I can't think of a more thankless job - nor a more necessary one.
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Old 08-08-2012, 07:49 AM   #12
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Re: Scale Short Kits

totally agree, they have to err on the side of caution for sure, and I'd be very worried if they hadn't reacted exactly as they did, until all the facts are examined.
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:35 AM   #13
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Re: Scale Short Kits

That non delivery issue is a crock. Proof of delivery indicates he received it or someone did and now it becomes his issue to find it. The best you can do is start a can post trace.

Learn and burn I guess, next time funds before delivery?

Hope it all works out.
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:36 AM   #14
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Smile Re: Scale Short Kits

I agree, I guess its easy to be on the outside and complain about the rules and the rule makers. I was a bit harsh/angry, apologies to RCC. Dave could you not start an email list and when you do decide to make a kit email us all?

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Old 08-08-2012, 10:41 AM   #15
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Re: Scale Short Kits

Need to change my post

Last edited by mrrandyman; 08-08-2012 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 08-08-2012, 10:50 AM   #16
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Re: Scale Short Kits

Ok let me try this again.
Put me on your email list for future kits.
I know how hard it is to get started and I will support you effort.
As a matter of fact PM me as I think i can contribute to your goal.
Do Not Quit.

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Old 08-11-2012, 08:48 AM   #17
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Re: Scale Short Kits

Hi Dave, I wont respond to your emails any longer as this has been taken to a post. When I am done replying I will lock the thread and we can all move on. You should have my contact details if you need to further discuss it, and by that i mean call

Originally Posted by mwavesdave View Post
When I was first asked about providing short kits to RC Canada members, I asked an RC Canada moderator about the legality of doing so. I was told that my provision of kits at near cost was acceptable, without requiring paying for an authorized vendor status. However, a review has decided that I am technically in violation of RC Canada Rules.
A moderator may or may not have said go ahead with the sales, I can't confirm that and so I don't know who it was. This is a statement of fact from you regarding the permission to sell the kits. If you have the correspondence, forward it please. While in the defense of any moderator who said it was ok, if you were selling in minor quantities perhaps they felt overlooking it was ok. When you emailed me telling me how you were actively selling multiple kits I asked you to fill out the vendor form which provides me with
a) your specific details
b) what you are selling
c) your contact information
d) what you are looking to budget for advertising.

In return I can usually find something that works for you. Now if FREE is what you are looking for then I have to tell you we are out of stock on that one.

Rules being rules, yes you are breaking them and I do appreciate the fact that you are respecting them.

Originally Posted by mwavesdave View Post
Given that I have little profit margin, i.e. cutting 4 short kits and selling essentially covers the cost of one short kit for myself, I cannot justify paying for vendor status, and having to probably at least double the cost to members for the kits. It is far more economical for me to cease with all short kits, and also respect the rules of this site. While I regret this ruling, I still greatly enjoy the discussions, so will abide by RC Canada's ruling. I'll endeavor to send this message personally as well, individually to everyone who's expressed an interest in kits. I hope people will continue to explore building scale aircraft from plans, it's very challenging to be sure, but well worth the effort!
Dave Rowe
Dave, in your previous email you said you didn't know the rates and now you can't afford them? This is the downside of these types of threads, speculation, misinformation which seems to mislead people into thinking we are the bad guys.
You also said you have sold 24+ kits in recent months. You aren't doing this for free.
I think the real break down is when you sent me your most recent email critiquing the process of vendor information collection. I could quote you but you are well aware of what you said and though its certainly not offensive the input wasn't what I had asked for.

The reality is, you don't know the rates, my understanding is you haven't done what I asked you to do and you have been as far as I know profiting from the sales of your kits on this site. I certainly don't think that's fair for RCC.

So again, stop selling your kits, fill out the form and go from there. I am not picking on you, I am following the same process that every current vendor has gone through and any previously interested shops have. There is no commitment by giving us details but it gives us an idea of who we are dealing with.

Originally Posted by Dangaras View Post
Hmm, that's unfortunate.
This very thread is unfortunate.
It's hard enough to manage the board without having to babysit a thread like this which is generally geared toward hating on RCC.

Originally Posted by SpaceCowboy View Post
I agree. When given the opportunity to figure it out Dave went to this post instead. So yes, it sucks that when it was free and he could profit Dave felt it was ok to do, but when asked to do something so miniscule as to fill out a form (like an excel sheet) he complains (not sure that's the word) and doesn't do it.

Originally Posted by mrrandyman View Post
Really unfortunate.
Perhaps there could be some modifications made to seller fee's in a case like this that would allow you to continue without draining the bank account.
Ive even tried calling Dave on the phone, no luck.
Without a two way street of communication and some compliance, we can't help or can I say I want to help.

Originally Posted by goneflyin View Post
Couldn't people just email you privately for the kits?

You could make a kit for yourself with 'lots of spare parts'

Don, as long as Dave isn't selling those spare parts here while not an authorized vendor I have no issues with that. What Dave does in his private time via his email or phone is his business. What transpires here on RCC is ours.

Originally Posted by Sukhoi 68 View Post
I think this is one case where the rules are wrong. Dave is/was providing a great service to the members here on RCC. I personally have bought a kit from Dave and it was actually cheaper than originally quoted when it was time to pay up. Not to hold back here, but I would prefer you (RCC) pick on the people that are REALLY taking advantage of your members. Dave, I hope that one day RCC comes back to you with their tail between their legs.

Scott, there are numerous people here on the RCC staff who offer their services 100% free for the forum. In fact, we / I don't charge anyone other than commercial entities to use the forum. You offered to step up and support the site, Dave hasn't even done that. Would it have mattered, perhaps. Perhaps the perspective of what has been taking place would have changed. We certainly try to work with everyone, Dave included but if Dave is unwilling to play ball, then thats that.

Originally Posted by Redbaron View Post
I second that one Scott, Dave is not making much money on these kits & I have got a couple from him & can attest to that.
The issue is he is selling about 8 kits a month. I have no idea what the profit margin is but I imagine that a vendor rate could have been found for Dave had he filled out the form. I cannot force a guy to apply for vendor rates. I can only force people not to do sales on the site by way of warnings and bannings.

Originally Posted by roscoe View Post
Private enterprise can still be carried on privately; use e-mail instead of this open forum and no one will be "offended"
I agree with the previous posters, this activity was not a commercial enterprise or a large scale operation (pun intended)
Dave is free to do as he wishes on his email and phone, in person etc. We only care about what takes place on the site. We enforce the rules to protect other paying vendors.

There are also small scale operations who pay to be here so that isn't a good enough excuse for him not to try.

Originally Posted by mwavesdave View Post
Thanks all for the support! I do see their (RCC) point, rules are rules, and it's their forum, they make the rules. I do agree that there are people on here that I'm certain are running a full scale business, and selling without being vendors, or they have some huge hoards of RC stuff!! The whole intent of this enterprise, was a cost sharing, so that we could all get giant scale kits at a reasonable price, and then be able to share on here the building of the aircraft, and pool knowledge and resources to help one another. The Ziroli P-38 short kits for example, sell normally in the $400 range for a laser cut short kit. I can't justify that, nor can a lot of people, and that's just the short kit! I sold them at $100. That had to cover the plywood (fairly inexpensive thankfully) the balsa (the most expensive part of doing the kits!), all my shop materials, bandsaw blades, scrollsaw blades, sandpaper, electricity, etc. I could never, ever make any money doing this, and that was never the point. If someone sold reasonably priced kits, I'd buy them. I have all the Top Flite kits, some Balsa USA, even some old Pica kits. But spending a grand say, on a Mick Reeves Hurricane, was totally out of my price range. By doing the short kits of the VA Hurricane, I essentially got my short kit free, scrounged a good used Zenaoh 26 for $100, scratchbuilding the canopy, cowl, radiators, etc, and with those savings, can afford the huge $$ for the retracts.

RC Canada reacted on a complaint from a buyer claiming he's paid, but not recevied his kit. While I have 100% proof of delivery, and no payment for a month now, they have to investigate, and can't be taking sides until they get all the facts. I'm assuming he also complained that I wasn't an authorized vendor, so they gave notice. I've mentioned back to RC Canada that I had sought, and was given approval for this, but for now, their initial decision was to issue a warning, and insist I cease advertising. I do hope they change their minds, but I must abide by their rulings in the meantime. This is a great forum for builders to connect, share ideas, questions, not to mention searching for hard to find kits, engines, etc, so I'm not going anywhere, and have to play by their rules. If anyone wishes more information, feel free to PM with your questions/thoughts, and I'll reply, don't want any mudslinging on an open forum! Thanks again for your support, and hopefully we can find a way ahead.
If others are acting in a commercial capacity, use the report button. Its anonymous and we will look into it and handle it.

I am going to touch on the complaint in a moment.

Originally Posted by John Melnick View Post
Kudos for your balanced view of the issue Dave and I hope that the investigation regarding the alleged "non delivery" works out as it should.

I'm sure that Admin is struggling with this one as well, I can't think of a more thankless job - nor a more necessary one.
Oh John, if you knew

So, is it fair that RCC needs to deal with an unauthorized vendor who may or may not have delivered a package and a user who says he has paid but the vendor claims he never got the money?
First off, this isnt even an authorized vendor. I generally communicate with all the vendors and if something like this happens to a user at least I have some leverage in assisting to resolve the issue. In this instance there is nothing and the user potentially is out of luck.

We are an RC site. We are not the police or the judge. We enforce the rules that work well for the site and we flex / bend certain rules to allow the community to flow in an organic fashion. It is a thankless job, one that generally mid day or late at night interrupts our lives.


Sales should be done in the classifieds.
Its buyer beware. (we auto insert that message into every sale ad)
Unauthorized vendors should be reported so that they sign up or stop selling.

You can email me direct or pm, that applies to everyone. If you don't want to chat with me talk to any of the staff.
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