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Old 01-29-2004, 10:04 PM   #31
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Is a 20 lb plane going 200mph any safer than a 50 lb plane doing the same speed?

Is a plane going 200 mph going to do that much less damage than a plane going 250 mph?

Sounds like simple questions but not really. I think any limits,whether it be speed, weight or thrust to weight should be looked at carefully and assessed. First, are things like speed limits effective, can they be policed. If they are set will they make any difference?

I think we need to take a step back, find out what the real concerns from the government are and then address the concerns with safety measures that are effective and can be controlled. If this is not done we will be in the same boat as the AMA with unrealistic rules that are not enforcable. Rules that are set without facts are useless.
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Old 01-29-2004, 10:49 PM   #32
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my two cents. yes we play with models but we are not children . Why would we want to follow the US lead in this? How much better to look at what the world is doing. I think the world view assumes that a person who spends the money effort and time to become a pilot capable of flying a model at high speed will go to extraordinary lengths to insure that he goes home with said model in one piece. Irresponsible behavior is not encouraged or even tolerated at my club why would it change now.
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Old 01-29-2004, 10:54 PM   #33
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I've heard Bob Violett speak on why the 200 mph limit was point was lack of pilot experience with high speed models, and the other was that manufacturers do not have the resources to do detailed analysis of both structures and handling at high speeds.

I've also seen (on TV) unguided model rockets exceed 1450 mph in the some perspective to this discussion.

One piece of hardware that these model rockets had was a simple looking circuit board that communicated both speed and altitude in real time back to a laptop on the ground. I can see something like this being required at sanctioned events to monitor speeds - perhaps rented out by the organizers.

MAAC does not have the ability to actively police speeds - nor should they. I respect the need for an upper limit, but in typical Canadian fashion, each individual pilot should assume responsiblity for their own flying.....

If I were to pick a speed limit, I'd go for 200 knots (230 mph) (370 kpH)....

The sooner you fall behind, the more time you will have to catch up.
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Old 01-29-2004, 11:38 PM   #34
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The simple curicut board you speak of is only the altimiter/ auto deployment device. It measures altitude to deploy the recoverey system at apogee. The real time device is acually a GPS transponder, a very expensive piece of equipment. To expect clubs or events to invest in such technology is unrealistic. If an event really wanted to monitor speed it could simply borrow a speed clock from the PD.

I think the world view assumes that a person who spends the money effort and time to become a pilot capable of flying a model at high speed will go to extraordinary lengths to insure that he goes home with said model in one piece.
Assumptions will destroy this hobby.

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Old 01-30-2004, 08:11 AM   #35
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speed = risk
3D = risk
you can talk all you want it comes down to responsible behavior
by us pilots MAAC should also think about this
(whats next? no more spectators within a mile)
this is just me thinkin out loud it is a free country
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Old 01-30-2004, 09:18 AM   #36
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Hi Guys !

Just got back from work and saw this very interesting discussion. Let's keep it simple !! If they want a number , let's give them a number. The full size rules in Canada limit the speed to 200 knots (230 mph) within 10 miles of an airport under 3000 ft agl. I say go for that . It's also relatively close to the American rules so there is a precedent already.

I really don't think this will be spoiling the fun for too many people . How many of us on this discussion group have approached 200 mph. That's pretty damn fast !!! I've only done 160 mph with a fairly large aircraft and it still gets small pretty fast ! My little Stingray is going to allow me to push my limits this year. 200+ without breaking a sweat!! The airplane that is. Me, well....
Marc Thomson
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Old 01-30-2004, 10:18 AM   #37
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The most feared statement in aviation – “Hello, I’m from the FAA (Transport Canada), and I’m here to help you”.

I have to agree that Marc’s interpretation of an airspeed limitation of 200 kts is probably more appropriate (CARS 602.32, 2). My original thinking did not include the 10 NM proximity to an airport. But TC could well interpret a model field as an “Airport”. Plus there are model fields within 10 NM of full size airports.

There’s no question that the “keep it simple” approach is the strategy that should be used. When dealing with officialdom, the less information offered the better. Give them what they ask for and only what they ask for. It’s better not to add any “helpful” commentary unless more information is specifically requested.

The only real problem that I see is, how to respond to being questioned as to how a model’s speed can: a) be determined and more importantly, b) be controlled to prevent overspeed.

"Simplicate and add lightness"
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Old 01-30-2004, 10:39 AM   #38
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Dennis.....the other most feared words in full scale aviation (especially the weekend warriors).....are...."watch this!"..

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Old 01-30-2004, 02:24 PM   #39
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I didn't want to get in this but I will say a few words as an ex F1 & F3D driver. Most of there flying can be restricted to the confines of a course which they race on. This is normally in the flying sites boundary but in some cases extends. Usually if this happens it is a farmers crop and you get permission to over fly or crash there. The only problem which can be corrected is what I call an eye check. You fly a long ways out till people think you lost it then come home. The other is when first launching a new bird and trimming it out before going down on the course. I don't want to be in the course as another pilot is trimming at 30' off the deck going around me. Can the speeds be monitored for racing : I don't think so in the open events. Club quickee they limit type of engine and prop but F1 is any fuel,prop combination and a .40 size engine. They can take metal out of the engine but can't add. QM basically is the same except for 15% fuel.
F3D is any prop(usually carbon), tuned pipe,.40 engine and tune anyway you want. The restriction is on fuel(0%) but that will not slow them down.
This class I like because if you tinker you can take a dead beat engine and make it go. My ST's from a ways back would launch at 26K and in flight go over 30k. I think that is close to the norm now. I have in box a grrt that will turn up there now. Keep them on the course and you shouldn't have a proplem.
The problem I see with a sport speed is lots of times they are outside the perimeters of the site which usually raises eyebrows. If they use throttle control you wouldn't have people raising to much of a fuss.
For me keep the speeds high or you won't be able to compete outside of here. You just have to control where you are doing it and also be a competant pilot.
John Davidson
Keep the shiny side up and the wheels down
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Old 01-30-2004, 02:52 PM   #40
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Okay, time to weigh in...

While I agree fully with the idea of selecting a speed limit based on existing Transport Canada limits, as I recall the exact limit is either 250kts or 200kts depending on what class of airspace you're in, so the lower of the two would probably be the more appropriate one to use. (I know the airspace regs have been overhauled since I went through ground school, so please advise if I'm incorrect...) I also strongly agree that thrust to weight is neither an adequate nor reasonable means of restricting airspeed; T/W simply does not account for the enough factors that determine a given aircraft's ultimate speed capability.

Concerning the discussion on means to enforce (and/or penalize infractions of) the proposed speed limit, I must ask: "Why?" There are no special provisions to assess any of the other safety requirements we must meet. Granted assessing the need for brakes, for example, is pretty cut-and-paste as compared to judging exact speed, but but before anyone opens fire on my position please allow me to elaborate...

Consider what Jeremy mentioned about his Exocet: It's very difficult for the untrained eye to accurately assess the speed at which many model aircraft fly, especially jets. While flying a demo this past summer with my Facet 1200, the announcer mistakenly reported I was doing "well over 200mph", something that that airframe just wasn't capable of. (Well... maybe downhill in a hurricane.) The fact of the matter is that there aren't (currently) many model aircraft that are capable of sustaining greater than 200kts. (Certainly not without the pilot's deliberate intention to do so.) If someone really wants to try to prove that an aircraft is breaking the allowed limit, let him obtain a means to prove it.

And what of penalties for breaking the speed rule? There's no special penalty for not performing a range check, or not having a fire extinguisher ready, nor for any of the other MAAC safety rules so why give this one more emphasis? In seeking to give additional teeth to this particular rule, you're just asking for some self-appointed know-it-all to try to enforce it. I know I don't want to be cornered by anyone at my club for flying what he perceives to be "too fast", especially when I know most of the aircraft I'll fly won't even hit 200mph.

We all know that when rules are made some will take it upon themselves to break them, but if we tailor the rules specifically for that minority we make things unnecessarily burdensome for the vast majority. Lets learn from the AMA's turbine regs (and recent proposed revisions there-to) and not seek to put rules into place that make it needlessly difficult for "the average jet modeller". In becoming proficient jet modellers, we must learn certain skills like how to manage the effects of throttle lag and safely flying technically complex aircraft; It is my opinion that it is not an unrealistic expectation to demand that we also learn to self-police our speed. (Learn what 200kts/230mph looks like and err on the side of caution.) Further, I also believe it to be perfectly reasonable that we should be expected to adhere to that limit without the need to mandate additional speed-limiting hardware.

That's my take, YMMV
Kevin McLeod
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