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Old 06-08-2004, 07:39 AM   #31
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[/quote]Safety is a practice, not a device.[/quote]

I agree totally Jim! Its when we get complacent and don't follow a set procedure, these nasty things can happen...

One other point no one has mentioned yet, and that concerns our radios. Double check to make sure you have called up the right airplane! If not, your throttle could be reversed... I have been guilty of this one myself and it came as a big surprise when it started at full throttle!

Also, make sure the throttle is at idle! There is no need to start any gas engine any higher than that.
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Old 06-08-2004, 07:45 AM   #32
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Another common error;

How many times have you seen the throttle opened to prime the engine, and then not closed again before flipping the prop?

Ron Mattiuz

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Old 06-08-2004, 08:36 AM   #33
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Excellent comments Jim.

My prayers go out to Mr.Carr for a speedy recovery. It means the world to someone who has been seriously injured to receive support and best wishes from fellow flyers. I know this from personal experience. The pain may outwardly be physical but there is more happening than just physical pain. It really does help one to know his friends are there and giving full support at times like this. Please pass these messages on to Mr. Carr from all of us here at RCC.

Our club now uses elevated starter stands. They are great for obvious reasons. Even then we encourage folks to grab someone to give them a hand getting started. And I never ever encourage anyone to go out to the field and fly alone!!!

I shudder to think of what might have happened if I had have been at the field alone when I got the prop strike from a 16" APC swinging at about 5000 rpm. I only had 16 stitches and there was a lot of blood! But it would have been much worse if there were not friends there to immediately give me help and get me out to the hospital.

I hope Mr. Carr will continue to persue this wonderful sport/hobby and that this is only a minor setback. Again our prayers for a speedy recovery and please know your friends are here and pulling for you!
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Old 06-08-2004, 10:12 AM   #34
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Folks have to use whatever they can trust; above all common sense. The hoopla at our club that I remember was that someone asked why the hold downs were not mandatory and should they be. Some of the "verbal minority" raising some valid points, using weakness in some scale plane's tail structure just as one of several examples.

Along the same vein, you can't condemn those that use whatever devices, processes or procedures provided that the trust placed in these is understood and thought out.

Hopefully for Ron, folks won't be re-hashing this again and again. As has been stated the physical can heal much quicker than the mental thoughts. A lapse is that, a lapse, however unfortunate. The realization that it could happen to anyone will hopefully have more folks showing more caution.

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Old 06-08-2004, 10:41 AM   #35
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To the contrary, knowing Ron ... uh, I can't repeat verbatim what I think he would say in a family friendly forum like this but, I believe he would encourage discussing these issues.

I think we are on the same plane here (pardon the issue). Safety is not in the mechanism or methodology, it's in the practice. Your memory of "weakness in some scale plane's tail structure" can be addressed by using wing hooks but, the point is still the same. Any safety device, if used incorrectly can result in worse effect than avoiding it's use altogether. Education is the key. My personal opinion is that adding a device adds complexity to an already complex situation.
It's important to know know your limitations. I think Kevin, although he takes the other side of the tie-down argument, said it best; "if the routine is interrupted, I pack it in for the day". I don't normally pack it in for the day but, if I'm feeling distracted, frustrated or whatever, or if it just doesn't feel right, I shut down and take time to asses. Yes, I often get harassed for this ( the inevitable "are you flying or just socializing today?" questions ) but I just sit, and relax until my concentration is "on" and don't let anyone rush me into flying for their sake ... Long winded but, I do think this step is important.
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Old 06-08-2004, 02:11 PM   #36
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I too am PRO Tie Downs, I have been using them for years and have a set proceeder that I do not deviant from for starting.

I also admit that when I get into smaller aircraft such as funfly say 40 size and below I will use the hold and start method.

Nothing scares me more then seeing someone try to hold and start a larger aircraft......

Just my 2 cents on this one ..... besides I had to be different than Jimmy Mc.
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Old 06-08-2004, 02:43 PM   #37
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Aciidents do happen. Heck, I think I am a very safe person (mainly due to my profession) and I still notice at times, I am doing something that could (if the wrong things happen at the same time) be potentially very dangerous. Luckily we usually catch these well before the accident happens... but not allways.

I dont think it matters what type of restraint you use (tie down OR human being). I personally stilllike tohave one of my friends hang on to my plane, someone I know and trust and knows my commands (hand signals) and what my patterns are. Someone who isnt going to let go prematurely, etc. But if you like a tie down, use it. As long as you use something.

The only planes I will start solo now are my 1/2A's and thats it. I used to start my 40's solo but since I dont fly alone anymore its not necessary.

You never think it can happen - but it can. Accidents will happen sometimes no matter how carefull you are, we just have to minimise every possible chance.
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Old 06-08-2004, 03:45 PM   #38
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I was shocked to hear about Ron's accident! Please wish him a speedy recovery from me. Everytime I think about the accident I just shiver!Many of us have been "bitten" but this is tragic. Well this certainly has us all thinking and talking about safety, and that's good. So, I've been going over my start routine to see where improvements can be made and I'm going to make changes and I hope you guys are doing the same. Best bet is a flying buddy holding on. Remember, our buddy has our safety in mind too. Can we send Ron a card or is there something else we can do for him?? Jim, you know him good, what do you think?

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Old 06-08-2004, 04:29 PM   #39
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I was just thinking of this again - a number of years ago I witnessed my father allmost lose 4 fingers (they were allmost severed, but a surgeon in Sudbury saved them allthough he has no feeling and limited motion now, allmost 10 years after) in a table saw accident.

My point is, to this day, each and every day I go to work, I think to myself each and every time I use the saw (many times per day) what CAN happen if I let my judgement lapse and my guard down. Its not being worried or frightened what can happen, but more being aware of what I am doing constantly.

This exact same methodical approach is what we all need to do when starting and running our engines. Each and every time, untill it becomes second nature. Eventually it is something that you just do automatically - to me, its like putting on my seatbelt when I get into a vehicle, something I dont even realise I am doing.
Andrew Coholic -MAAC #26287L

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Old 06-08-2004, 04:32 PM   #40
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Three things make me ponder.........

1) At what point does a motor require a glove?
2) How many people as a general show of replies have a safety kit in their car and/or ice packs in case of the injury Ron Carr received?
3) How many people fly alone with no assistance whatsoever? I don't.

If you answer number 2 positively, I'll bet you are a minority. We have a kit at our field and I have one in my van, but nothing to administer first aid to the extent of the injury Ron received.
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