Field closed to jets? - RCCanada - Canada Radio Controlled Hobby Forum
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:48 PM   #1
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Field closed to jets?

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I've been told there's talk about closing the Kelowna club to jets. I thought this wasn't an issue with our clubs in Canada. I thought good common sense rules up here, but I could be mistaken. As of yet, no one in our club owns a turbine except myself. All this talk as I'm just finishing up the DV8R. It would be too bad if I had to join the Vernon club (good bunch though), as it entails more driving. Anyone else running into this?

Shaun Bell
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Old 09-29-2004, 07:40 PM   #2
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Not yet and hopefully never. A lot of times people talk of closing fields for jets due to some ignorance, and at times they think the sound level is too high. Granted big turbines are loud, but 12Lbs turbines once airborne are fairly quiet.

Once the fellow club members understand the safety features of your model, will respect its compexity. Think about it, a 30% gas powered Extra with a 50oz gas tank has just as much possibility to cause a fire as a turbine in a crash situation.

It is a matter of being informed and of respecting the turbine safety basic rules.

Good luck
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Old 09-29-2004, 07:42 PM   #3
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I have heard from only one club since I was asked to be on the committee, and it was mainly (from what I was told) a noise issue as the turbine did not meet the field's noise guidlines while on the ground.

I beleive that in order for a club to ban turbine powered airplanes, there ought to be a very good reason (not that certain members dont like them for instance) but if there is no safety concerns, no noise issues, etc then what is the difference?

Especially today, with particular model turbine jets that are capable of flying in a very similar flight regime with the average sport plane...

Let us know how it pans out for you.
Andrew Coholic -MAAC #26287L

1/2A to giant scale, IMAC, SAM, R/C sport, turbine jets, Heli's...
if its got a wing or two and an engine - I like it!
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Old 09-29-2004, 08:39 PM   #4
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If a club proceeds with a turbine ban with the reasoning that the engine doesn't meet the standards set for the garden variety 2 or 4 stoke, they clearly don't know what they are talking about. No turbine will pass a rule requiring an engine to produce less than a mid to low-90 db level at 3m... I don't think it would be a great deal further before the piston engine caught up and overtook the turbine's sound though... Yes, turbines are loud up close, but the sound attenuates (decreases in its amplitude) MUCH faster for high frequency, as apposed to low which goes forever. Heck, that's why a low frequency earthquake in Japan can potentially cause title waves on the west cost of North America...

A piston engine is very low frequency (ex. 15,000RPM = 250 Hz) , and the noise can travel for several kilometers. Worst case, the prop tips will produce a 500Hz sound on a 15K RPM engine. I use to judge weather or not someone was at the field by walking out on my front lawn an listening 10 years ago. that was a few km from the flying site...

Turbines are a totally different story, in the case of a KJ-66 @120K RPM, the main frequency is 2 kHz, about 1/10th of the max human threshold. There are several other frequencies generated from vanes and blades interacting though, well past 20 kHz. This is the reason the MW 54 and 44's seem quieter than a 66mm based engine. Anyhow, the differences in attenuation can be seen by the fact that a turbine is often 'silent' when its less than 1000 ft from the pilot. This distance is probably an order of magnitude less than the max distance that a piston engine can be heard. A perfect example is the commonly available video of the B52 that crashed in the UK, with 8 Wren MW-54 turbines at full throttle. Soon after takeoff, you can't even hear them over the wind in the video. From the same spot on my lawn that I mentioned earlier, I've since tried listing for a turbine that I knew was running at the time, no way was it even close to audible...

I was once approached by a local club in Vancouver when we were doing a demo at a fly in event. Some of the guys were commenting about banning turbines due to noise. Once the information was clearly presented to them, the issue disappeared rather quickly. These club members also realized that they would be the first in the country to do so, which is usually a hint about the validity of the argument... In the end, they went on with enjoying the technology like the rest of the nation and turbines have flown at RCFCBC many times since.

The only relating issue with turbines is the close up noise level. The long distance noise is not the problem, particularly in Kelowna with all these WestJet planes taking off right over the city... (or at least whenever I'm there) The solution is easy, and that is for a turbine to be started out on the strip or somewhere away from the spectators. Let's not forget that this is common practice anyway... Have extra hearing protection on hand should someone want to come watch close up. If they refuse it or you don't have enough, make it known what they're damaging their hearing at their own risk. For the 'quiet' engines, its not the sounds you hear that are hurting your inner ear, its the sounds you can't hear, (which of coarse attenuate even faster than the loud high frequencies you can hear...) Common sense and 'preventative maintenance' go a long way...

Hope this helps Shaun,

PS: Just get the DV8R done and flying. They'll probably figure it out on their own. BTW, why were you a no-show at Princeton???
Kelly Williams - 59082L
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Old 09-29-2004, 10:15 PM   #5
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How did you receive this information - as Secretary of KORC Kelowna, I know of no proposed ban, nor has one even been raised as a topic of discussion at either our Executive or member meetings, and I have not missed one in over 5 years.

You stated that "theres talk" of banning jets at our whom??? Even if it ever did come to a ban of any aircraft type, until it went to the membership at our Annual Meeting and resulted in a majority vote to change our by-laws, there's no ban of any kind of aircraft - even full size helis can land there as we have seen recently!! Please send me a note with the information you have heard (By PM if you wish) and I'll be sure to see the topic is put on the agenda and discussed at our Exec. and Club meetings next Wednesday.

Many of us have been waiting to see your new bird fly - been years since you had the ducted fan at our field !! I have turbine models in my long term plan ( only my recent foolish foray into trying a helicopter has changed the schedule somewhat) so this "ban" issue is very important to me also.

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Old 09-30-2004, 01:52 AM   #6
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I can't believe I didn't finish the DV8R for Priceton! Starting a new business just sucks up the time lol. Sure hope I can get it covered and out flying before the snow falls. Thanks for the info, I'm sure jets will keep flying in Kelown. You just can't take anything for granted anymore lol!

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