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Old 09-11-2007, 10:48 PM   #1
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Big 3D competitions, MAAC rules, and politics...

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So I am certain many people here of various levels have seen 3D competitions either on video or in real life correct? Both planes and helis in topic here.

Why is it that for example Tuscon shootout you see guys tourqe rolling, in some moves the wing tips of 40+% planes are only 4-10 from their face, and people clap, that's right "they clap". Quique as well hovering huge planes where he can stroke the fuselage with his hand, no one else arounf him, no safety belt or rubber band to pull him back like wilee coyote either... Guess what those pilots are not standing behind anything either, right on the runway or grass "wide open". Same with helis, for example Ircha event, "worlds largest" orginized event of 3D anad scale helicopters. No fences, only a cone to stand beside, pilots doing moves again with rotors only feet out fromtheir bodies.

Now you start talking about some events in Canada you get people shaking and all reved up the minute a plane or a heli is closer than 20 feet from the pilot, why is that? Then you have people wanting to enforce a fence to sit behind where the pilot/pilots have never stood behind one, and the people who are pushing it can not understand why it is hard to do, cause they themselves may have always done so, maybe they fly 200 feet in the air all the time and the fence is never a mental obstruction.

It is one thing to fly a plane and practice manuevers 100 feet plus in the air cause "you can see it", then there are moves with a plane you "need" to be low to the ground as well, if you want to push it and be good. Same goes for a heli, there are "some" things you can do up high and can practice up high, but once a level of proficiency is found taking it low is where you push yourself in the hobby to get better, and you don't want it 20-30 feet out where you can not judge the clearance between your disc and the ground you want it less than 12 feet in front of you, you have to have it there in fact in order to be safely orientated with the heli.

Anyone watch some of the T-Dot in Toronto? Several pilots and many pros as well were flying hardcore, feet away and inches from ground, this was a MAAC santioned event, how come it is an issue at any other funfly then? Or should I say some,,, as I was at a few where it was understood and there was no "plane vs heli", "that is crazy flying" guy attitudes.....

What gets my goat is that there are people out there who do not seem to get the whole 3D scene, maybe they need to get out more to bigger funflies, break out of their bubble a little?, I dunno.... There and will be more pilots that take risks, those risks are understood from day 1 in the hobby and should not be questioned if the pilot is profficient in their flying imho. Maybe it is time to have MAAC create a "wings part 2" program or something?,, but then would it even matter?

My question is why are there people who always have to push and make rules to their liking and comfort levels and can not understand another part/discipline of the hobby. I think this is equal to both plane and heli people alike and both sides have to understand what it takes to get better on both sides of the fence, sometimes and in alot of cases that involves pushing the limits, bringing the plane/heli in closer etc. If people at your local club have some talent and they want to be the next Alan Szabo, maybe the next Andrew Jeski or Quequi how do they do it? How do they excel and get better? Are those people forced to do it in the pastures where there are no spotters to aid them in any manner, is that actually a safer bet in the eyes of the nay sayers? I Think we get the point or at least I hope we do....

Rules are good as long as those rules/guidlines are realistic to those members and their discipline/styles and levels of skill. Too much politics, lack of knowledge of other clubs rules etc, lack of having an open mind and a wllingness for change leads to misunderstandings and BS politics that do not need to be brought into a "hobby" that is supposed to be still "fun". If this does not apply to you or your club or experiences, perhaps it may at least allow you to think of someone or somewhere where it does, be well. Flame sheilds up and active!
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Old 09-12-2007, 05:24 AM   #2
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Old 09-12-2007, 06:24 AM   #3
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I know at my local tracks we have tons of super wicked jumps that the cars/trucks often get over 7 or 8 feet of air. We have never had an instance where somebody has been hit with a car. This airplane/heli thing sounds very dangerous. Maybe the guys doing the extreme 3D stuff should start wearing full faced helmets? Maybe even some sort of protective suit? From the videos i've seen, the kinetic energy in those props and rotor blades looks deadly.
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:29 AM   #4
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Morning Shawn, this thread could beat the big race thread

I'm not sure of the rules here or in the US...What I have seen is when these big names and little names are doing their thing, ( airplanes, don't know what the heli guys do ) is that they are way out across the airstrip creating even more space between them, the crowd, pit area etc....I don't know if they are covered by insurance or not when they are doing those performances...( I guess we would have to read the rules here and abroad to fully know...Possibly they get special permission, who knows..

I, for one don't care how close they want to fly to their face, toes or whatever might be hanging out in the wind as long as it's done at the flight line when airborne.....Our flight line as you know is the far west side of the airstrip and I personally don't have a problem with anyone performing their manoeuvers out there.....I do however have a problem with aircraft or helis' being flown 3-D style any closer than this to the pits ( as you know ) ....I do believe the whole club agreed if anyone wants to fly 3-D to walk out to the west of the strip after take-off and that included all aircraft..

I think there are alot of proficient pilots in our club, but , there is always a risk. Safety and respect to others when anyone's flying should be the number one thing no matter how proficient the pilot or aircraft are.

What MAAC has layed out for rules, I'm noy sure about but I believe our field is up to what they require..

To all pilots I believe:

1) SAFETY and RESPECT to others should be first and foremost ( not how skilled the pilot thinks they are)

2) MAAC and CLUB guidelines should be followed.

3).Then go out and fly yours brains out

There can always be failures, be it brain, thumb or equipment...I think that is part of it..

I rather enjoy watching the helis' and airplanes perform their 3-D aerobatics, and encourage people to do it...But I enjoy it better when it's not in my face as a spectator..If I want in my face I'll go out and stand beside the pilot

Not an attack buddy, but there is no replacement for safety...We've all seen what can happen and I think we've all done it ourselves..

Like I say, this argument can go on forever..


P.S. Shawn this is not a personal attack..My passions are as great as yours. I just believe it should be done within the safety and the guidelines laid out...Maybe we do have to change the rules for 3-D but the safety has to reamain..PERIOD............
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:31 AM   #5
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There's a fine line between showmanship and foolhardiness,unfortunately that line is neither well understood or defined.

These days (especially since 911), insurance is a big driver to determining what is acceptable risk. If you want to push the line, be my guest , as long as you're not endangering or jeopardizing the enjoyment others glean from the hobby (and this includes the loss of the field or triggering of the percieved need for restrictions from external organizations such as Transport Canada).

My simple rules (With apologies to Isaac Asimov);
1) Do no harm or allow others to be harmed
2) Do not interfere with the fun of others unless this violates rule #1
3) Have as much fun as you can without violating rule #1 and #2
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Old 09-12-2007, 09:57 AM   #6
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You bring up some good points in your write up. Safety is always a concern but, you answered your own question within your post already. It's fun, it is a hobby, to what extent should a member/executive/MAAC enforce the rules? Can't beat you guys with a stick Most club rules and MAAC have simple guidelines to help us protect the field. If your hovering an inch above the ground and get hit (god forbid) think you'll receive coverage? It's a risk!

I checked the MAAC site, I don't see a committee for 3D. I do see a chairperson in your neck of the woods for safety though. With AZM's happening in the near future; perhaps you may be able to make a difference for that SMALL but growing part of the hobby!

I ride a cruiser, I can get nice insurance coverage through Beacon for a great price, if I am over 30 years old, (I am ) If I rode a sport bike I could not! Beacon will not insure a sport bike. ICBC will in our province but it's expensive!

Majority always rules! Doesn't mean to say if enough 3D guys get together they couldn't set themselves up nicely without jeapordizing modelers that fly scale, IMAC, and circuits!

There is no arguement that flying 3D is unsafe. It's obviously a dangerous area of RC!

Run with it
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Old 09-12-2007, 10:33 AM   #7
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The issue arises when like JIm mentioned, you encroach upon the safety of others.

I have been to events where heli guys have tried (and I mean tried) to impress the rest of the flyers with their 3D capability. The thing was, they were flying so out of control and on the edge with the machines coming and going too close to others for comfort.

I fly pretty much everything from IMAC, helis (used to for 12 years anyhow) Jets, etc and I am not one to try and enforce rules thata re not logical. But sometimes, especially at a large gathering its not safe to have guys who think they are better than they really are try stuff they really shouldnt be trying at an event. At the home club when not too many are around? Sure. But how do you police this? Its impossible.

I am most impressed by a flyer who can fly very hard maneuvers and low and close in. I LOVE to see that stuff - but ONLY by pilots who are in control. And thats the thing, how do you know the guy taking off and immediately doing a tuble towards the flight line is not going to dumb thumbs and cut someone's throat?

Policing pilots and such should IMO be done mainly internally - other pilots HAVE to talk to the guys who are doing stuff beyond their limits and try and keep things safe first and foremost.

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Old 09-12-2007, 11:28 AM   #8
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A good discussion! I have seen a few examples of what I consider to be unsafe flying, on both sides of the border. A simple hickup [mechanical failure, radio interference, or just dumb thumbs] could have resulted in serious injury.

I cant suggest anything south of the border, [as we in Canada have no authority with regards to AMA rules] but I can comment about things here in Canada, and those Canadian pilots who cross the border to fly....Remember its MAAC who covers your butt outside of Canada...

MAAC has a safety code. Those who choose to not read it, or choose to ignore the rules for their particular discipline, are not only risking their own well being, but those of others as well. In the event of a serious accident, I don't think anyone would want to be denied coverage, because you were not following MAACs safety rules. You could end up paying out of your own pocket for the rest of your life!

My advice... Read up on it, and follow them.
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Old 09-12-2007, 12:58 PM   #9
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MAAC approved safety clothing for radical 3D pilots.....
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:00 PM   #10
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safety meeting

ok this thread stems from local issues weve been experiecing due to what seems like a lack of knowledge i think we (as in our specific club) need to conduct a meeting and get the rules that we follow straight

Jack you say by going to the west edge of the field do you mean the flight line? if so that would work but as i was reminded recently we have to use the pilot boxes

there seem to be a lot of what ifs floating around lately and well theres always going to be some what if's i have personnaly launched an aircraft in the proper and safe way and whatched as i crashed dead center in the pits had i been further out on launch it would have hit one of the picnic tables where ppl were sitting not paying attention it was an acident and these things are going to happen we are not professionals just average joes

so my point is.....well i don't know but our club is starting to devide and i don't like it

ps. the annual meeting this year is to be next month not december like past years maybe we should try to get a decent turnout so that all involved in this can get this worked out i was at the last meeting and the turnout was atrouchous 6 is not enough to do anything
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