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Old 02-20-2010, 12:49 PM   #51
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Re: Bfl Canada Insurance ???????

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Sounds like he is set in his ways, why does he continue to try and convince himself that MAAC is no good
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Old 02-20-2010, 01:37 PM   #52
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Re: Bfl Canada Insurance ???????

That argument is flawed. Based on my experience it would take years to change this and not everyone has years available to make change or the patience. The insurance committee is no longer open to the general member and this is where one could more easily effect change. Insurance is a closed shop in order "to let the professionals handle it".
Anyone with any life experience knows that professionals need to be checked and lay persons may be unclean, a little rough around the edges, and a little lacking in education, but often come up with good ideas and provide balance.

I understand the liability of flexibility but I too understand the frustration of not being able to go to my totally vacant parking lot 1 minute away from my home and flying from it once or twice in January, when I cannot get to a field.

Despite what anyone else says I too believe that when I fly , whether or not I am insured is not a sure thing through MAAC insurance. The only time I would be a believer in it is if I had a processed claim and of course I don't want to experience that.

We have no history of claims paid, description of incidents, ratio of claims denied to paid and yet the Soaring Association of Canada can discuss accidents, claims ratios, etc. with their members every year. ???...and publish in PDF fashion available to anyone on the internet.
They haven't jeopardized their insurance by doing so.

BTW guys. Open your eyes and read. His criticism looks fair to the average member.

Originally Posted by Applehoney View Post
Well now, Tom, if you are so dissatisfied with MAAC maybe the answer is that you should come forward at your next Zone AGM and volunteer for a position from which you might start to move things more in the direction you seek?

Last edited by 4*60; 02-20-2010 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 02-20-2010, 02:03 PM   #53
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Re: Bfl Canada Insurance ???????

There's one thing for sure, you can't please everyone!

Being insured so anyone can do anything is not a reality. This change comes from the insurance carrier NOT from MAAC!

A little common sense would dictate wether or not someone could fly in a vacant parking park lot or their own back yard.

We should try and keep the arguement, but I'm not convinced there is one, to what affects the entire nation! That's a much larger job that doesn't seem to get much respect!

I have first hand knowledge of many clubs just in BC that would not be able to operate without the support and professionlism offered by the soaring association

BFL is there for you to use if it so fits your needs, the arguement is will BFL be there when you need it.

Not knowing wether or not you're insured through MAAC when you are flying is no different than wondering if your insured through ICBC when you're driving. I think you can rest assured in the fact that MAAC has been able to obtain and maintain insurance coverage and despite what some seem to think is factual, MAAC does examine many areas and stands strong for our needs!

I do however agree with you that the main cause for most upsets is the lack of education or rather obtaining knowledge!

I would encourage anyone with unanswered concerns to contact their Zone Director with a list in hand and together you can work on obtaining answers. This effort could also be used in helping others better understand because I can tell you again with first hand knowledge, that we can not come up with the answers you seek without first knowing the question and to get many of you to communicate is like pulling teeth

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Old 02-20-2010, 04:11 PM   #54
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Re: Bfl Canada Insurance ???????

Originally Posted by Hughes500E View Post

Not knowing wether or not you're insured through MAAC when you are flying is no different than wondering if your insured through ICBC when you're driving.
Precisely why I have basic insurance with ICBC(required) and am insured privately to drive my vehicles.
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Old 02-20-2010, 06:34 PM   #55
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Re: Bfl Canada Insurance ???????

a sanctioned MAAC field IS compliant with " insurance requirements" applehoney said...maybe you should become involved in MAAC and then you could see what you might like to change....or on the other hand, you may just find out that these guys are actually doing a pretty fair job of it after all.

and no actually, the BFL insurance is not better, and it is definitely NOT cheaper. nor does it "cover you to fly in a car park " etc. it is a SECONDARY insurance ie. to be added to a specific policy already in a specific field or flying site that already has insurance coverage from another source..
therefore, if you are not covered by a MAAC policy already, or not covered by a rider on your homeowners policy, it is of absolutely no use to you for what you think you want, because you won't be able to obtain a policy on your own through it.

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Old 02-22-2010, 12:48 PM   #56
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Post Re: Bfl Canada Insurance ???????

Well, I've been reading the posts to this thread and the other thread regarding MAAC and the insurance issue and have been making some observations and would like to "weigh-in" on the issue and offer my $0.02 worth to the discussion. I realize this post is fairly lengthy so I'm apologizing in advance for the verbal diarrhea.

I want to start off by saying that I am not a P & C Insurance broker but am in the life insurance business. Although the 2 are very different, there are processes that do have commonalities.

I would like to make a few points before I provide my observations:
* MAAC is not an insurance company nor a broker but rather a "conduit" to provide members of their organization insurance coverage at a sanctioned field only.
* The insurance company (manufacturer) for the insurance provided through MAAC, is Lloyd's of London. The broker for this policy is AON Reed Stenhouse.
* BFL is not an insurance company but is an insurance broker providing the product to the end consumer.
* The insurance company (manufacturer) for the insurance provided through BFL, is Lloyd's of London
* I spoke with Anne Taylor, Vice President from BFL. There are 2 different types of coverage that can be purchased - first is the "GAP" policy which goes in conjunction with the policy provided through MAAC and the second being a "standalone" policy which does not require you to have the coverage provided through MAAC.
* The limit of liability through the coverage with MAAC is $5MM in the aggregate - not per claim.
* The limit of liability that can be purchased through BFL is a choice between $2MM or $5MM of liability in the aggregate - not per claim.
* The deductible for the coverage through MAAC is $5,000.
* The deductible for the coverage through BFL is $2,500
* The policy provided through MAAC will only allow you to fly at a sanctioned field.
* The policy provided through BFL will allow you to fly anywhere.

First off, the biggest issue that I see in this discussion is to have insurance to cover you no matter where you fly. If you want to continue to be a MAAC member and want to fly at other locations, then you should have the discussion with your club about acquiring the "GAP " coverage. This coverage is inexpensive and it will allow you to fly anywhere and not just at a sanctioned field.

For $5MM liability through BFL, it is $16.50 per club member and $50 for the club with an annual minimum premium of $500.00. So if you have less than 27 members, you would still need to pay $500 - very inexpensive for some piece of mind if you're not flying at a sanctioned and compliant club.

There is an option for a "standalone" policy. If you decide not to carry the coverage through MAAC, then for $5MM of coverage, it is $45 per member and $100 for the club and an annual minimum premium of $1,000. This in my opinion is very inexpensive coverage.

As Tom had mentioned, compliance of your club field may be quite a sticking point. In the 10 years I've been a member of our club, I have never seen any MAAC representative or a representative from an insurance company come to our field to measure it to ensure that it is compliant with the appropriate guidelines. Now, when it comes to claim time, this can certainly be an issue as the insurance company can then come out, measure the field and if it isn't within the guidelines, you're not covered...plain and simple. This is known as "doing the underwriting at the time of claim". What you want is to "do the underwriting at the time of application" to know that you are compliant and that you will be covered in the event of a claim.

We, as Canadians, are all too trusting when it comes to these issues and need to change this thought process. What I would like to ask the other clubs, is, "Have you had someone measure your field to ensure compliance?" If not, how do you know if you are in compliance? Did someone just tell you that you are or do you have it in writing that you are compliant? If you don't have it in writing, then you are exposed to a lot of risk and chances are good that a claim can be denied. Keep in mind, that an insurance company is there to pay a claim as long as you follow what is in the policy. If you don't follow this, then the insurance company has the contractual right to deny the claim.

As for our club, I have asked that we have someone give us a written letter stating that our field is in compliance so that we know that if a claim arises, that we will be covered. If we can't get this, then having the coverage provided through MAAC is totally useless.

With the coverage offered through BFL, field measurements are not a compliance issue as you can fly anywhere and you're covered. Their stipulation is that the club and members follow the recommended MAAC safety regulations.

I've noticed in the other thread on RCC regarding MAAC and insurance in a post by Tyler P ( ), he had commented that the insurance premium is the major part of our annual membership dues, but it didn't state the amount as I suspect that Tyler P doesn't in fact know the amount or he would have stated what it was. I was informed that the insurance is only a small portion of our annual dues but I don't have this figure either. Should these amounts not be posted in the annual report from MAAC so that we as members know what we are paying for the insurance portion?

In searching the MAAC website, I couldn't find the minutes and reports from the latest AGM. If it's in the website, my apologies as I didn't see it. If it is there, can someone provide the most recent treasurer's report? This should provide all of the pertinent financial expenditures with MAAC including what the portion is for the insurance portion of your membership. As an association, this information is supposed to be readily available to all of its members.

With the associations that I belong to in my professional life, there is no insurance as part of my membership of that organization and I rather like it that way so that I can look after it myself. The Errors and Omissions insurance that I purchase is separate and apart from membership dues and is in fact provided to me by the same broker as MAAC has, AON Reed Stenhouse.

In my humble opinion, I think that MAAC should either strip out the insurance portion of their membership and let the clubs look after this themselves or they should offer the same coverage as provided through the BFL policy that will allow you to fly anywhere. After all, Lloyd's of London is on the hook in either case so it would be no difference to them.

Maybe I provided $0.05 worth in this reply.
John Jordan
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Old 02-22-2010, 01:41 PM   #57
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Re: Bfl Canada Insurance ???????

Hi JJordan,

Thank you for taking the time to do such a thourough investigation of the insurance with MAAC and BFL.

I agree with your statement that MAAC should strip out the insurance. I personally believe insurance should only be available through MAAC as an option as I have stated earlier.

I think if anyone has taken a step back and looked at the subject objectively they would have to agree - get MAAC back into allowing the "isolated" modellers to join without forcing them to accept the MAAC's insurance.

Turn MAAC back into a modeller's organization for the grass root people who want to join for the social and knowledge sharing aspect. Almost always I hear people who join MAAC because they "have to" in order to join a club and also for the insurance, this is just plain wrong.

They should join a club to fly with friends and people with similar interests, if insurance is a requirement for joining a club, then allow any insurance to be accepted as long as it meets set standards - this would most certainly make MAAC insurance pricing more competitive.

You have brought up an interesting point about the financial statement not mentioning the insurance costs - I have often wondered why this is myself. I'm not sure if it is hidden, but I can't find it in the financial statement. Hopefully someone will find the cost per membership.

I know your post will bring criticism from some members, but as always, you will find people in any organization who want things to stay the way they are, they don't want change, these are the ones who prevent us from progressing.

Again JJordon, thanks for the objective point of view - I hope others will read your post objectively. I also hope MAAC will separate insurance out as part of their mandatory membership fees.


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Old 02-22-2010, 02:03 PM   #58
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Re: Bfl Canada Insurance ???????

I have one question regarding J Jordans post. The expression "To fly anywhere" is used several times. Should this be qualified. to at least "With property owners permission". I am sure some other restrictions would apply.

Ed s
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Old 02-22-2010, 02:07 PM   #59
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Re: Bfl Canada Insurance ???????

Great job on distilling the essence of this discussion.

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Old 02-22-2010, 02:22 PM   #60
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Re: Bfl Canada Insurance ???????

MAAC Financial Info

Info for the MAAC AGM is published in the February issue of Model Aviation Canada.

For the 2009 AGM the financial info is in the February 2009, Vol. 40 No. 1 issue, starting on page 24.

The 2009 AGM report is the June 2009, Vol. 40 No. 3 issue on page 9.
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