I'm really starting to lean away from clones!! - RCCanada - Canada Radio Controlled Hobby Forum
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:22 PM   #1
bensidus197217
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I'm really starting to lean away from clones!!


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As in an earlier post I stated some problems I had with my HK500 torque tube. I changed back to good old belt drive with less problems for me in the past. Upon final assemble of my belt drive tail when I was installing my HK cnc tail blade grips I noticed one grip was loose so I tightened the grip thrust bolt. Upon further inspection I noticed the mounting shoulder was .007 too short, so if you tighten the screw the blade grip becomes impossible to move. So once again I have more machining to do thanks to lack of Hobby King qc. See the pics they say it all.
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Old 04-24-2012, 09:24 PM   #2
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Re: I'm really starting to lean away from clones!!

Sorry I never put the pics in the last post.
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:29 AM   #3
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Re: I'm really starting to lean away from clones!!

So I gather that the tail feathering spindle has a shoulder that is too short? Or the feathering bearing is too thick?

I imagine from what you describe that the tolerance stack between the feathering bearing and the feathering spindle shoulder is in the negative?

That would mean you could either
A) machine the feathering spindle shoulder a tad bigger using a lathe
or
B) make the feathering bearings thinner. That would be tough to do if you dont have a surface grinder.


In both cases, only people with access to either one of these machine tools would be able to solve this problem.

I guess the cheaper alternative if you have neither is to buy an OEM part from align

Just curious what option you chose to fix the problem.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:11 AM   #4
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Re: I'm really starting to lean away from clones!!

I used a lathe and machined the spindle shoulder at both the roller bearing spindle and the thrust bearing part of the spindle.Took .007 off the thrust bearing spindle and .010 off the roller bearing spindle. Now it has about .001 clearance for the two bearings combined it's a nice fit and very smooth operation. What I received from Hobby King I didn't double check because it looked and felt OK out of the bag. Now if I didn't find this problem that tail was waiting to blow at the worst time. I do have an array of small machining tools such a lathe and milling attachment plus a multitude of hand tools power and otherwise so for me a clone can be made to work right but this is starting to get to be a little much. I know it's not the right way to do it but as parts break or wear out they will be replaced with Align until I change it over completely.
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:50 PM   #5
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Re: I'm really starting to lean away from clones!!

Setting up a manufacturing facility is a lot like buying a heli. One can use the relatively cheap CNC machining equipment that originated in China and that are manufactured there. This means their overall manufacturing costs would be very low - but so would the quality of the parts they manufactured.

On the other hand, a factory, even on in China that is co-owned by a western brand, will bring top quality CNC machines, from Switzerland or Germany, into their factories. Of course, these machines cost many times more then those available locally. And of course they will produce good quality parts. As these parts cost more to manufacture, the resultant heli and its' associated parts will also cost more for the end consmer.

This does not take into consideration the extra cost of the much better service and manuals that come with quality kits from the better brands.

But then one could always go the cheap route with a caution statement on the box:

"Builder may have to be a machinist so that he can redo parts in this kit that are poorly machined"

and:

"We do not have a service department, so if you have a problem. you are on your own."

Then, maybe people that are just starting to get into this hobby, will realize the value of the better brand name products.

Another savings that some large Taiwanese manufacturers use, is to use aluminum moldings of their parts and then machine the surfaces that fit around bearings, shafts and such. This may mean that the aluminum used may not be as hard as that used in similar part from a top brand that is all CNC machined.

I could go on and on as this also extends into the quality & types of GRP plastics used and even the quality & types of the C/F used. But this will give you guys an indication of why there are such price differences in clones compared to the more established brands that they may copy.
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:56 PM   #6
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Re: I'm really starting to lean away from clones!!

Well said Phil, Quality In = Quality Out 99% of the time....
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:27 PM   #7
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Re: I'm really starting to lean away from clones!!

I do agree, good equipment makes good parts, at least if the person runing that machine is good at his job.

But I question just how much better is that Align part, considering that an Align 450V2 kit is selling for just under 140.00 in the US. A KDS 450 sells for more, so does that make it a better kit, I don't think so.

I really have not bought a complete kit yet, unless you count the RTF KDS-450 purchased sometime ago, which is still flying. That is if you call what I do flying(mainly its avoiding a crash).

Instead, I buy the parts I like and assemble then making sure everything is fitting. I really prefer the KDS metal tail rotor to anything I have seen yet. With 4 450's and one 500, I can without a dought say, I have never had a crash due to a part failure, brain failure yes but no part failure.

I am just thankful for places like HobbyKing and GoGo.RC where I can get parts plus many other things I probaly don't need. But also like Bensidus, I have a lathe and milling machine and not afraid to pull apart and fix any problems I precieve. But to be honest most of the parts from KDS, and HK plus the X-Copter FBL heads I have, have yet to find any real problem with them. Yes I have cleaned a few parts up with 400 wet and dry paper on a glass plate, used some steel wool with Valve Grinding grease to get a smooth fit. But that is about all.

Now if someone asked me what they should get to start flying heli's, I would say either a KDS 450, or Align 450 or even a HK 450. Then add to that a good radio, an SK-720 with proably the X-Copter FBL head and then have fun. I do think to many newbies start out with electronics that is more suited to some of you out there that can fly.

The one thing I truly don't understand is how I can order a few items from HobbyKing and get them in less time than if I order from some place in TO?

And with that, need to pull apart one 450 that I decided to try my hand at doing a dust off just like the real ones did many years ago. Which would have been perfect had the earth been about 11 inches lower.

Have a great day everyone.

Jim
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:49 PM   #8
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Re: I'm really starting to lean away from clones!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesBC View Post
....

The one thing I truly don't understand is how I can order a few items from HobbyKing and get them in less time than if I order from some place in TO?

....

Jim
Raining in BC
Because there are Chinese warehouse companies that have set up shipping warehouses in many cities in North America. Chinese retail firms ship inventories to these warehouses, and when the retailers get an order in HK or China, it is shipped from these warehouses. Of course all the billing and other paperwork will have the retailers logos on them as these warehouses have the computer means to print them out...very easy to do today.

Another method, is for them to ship via Chinese airlines, who are owned by the Chinese government, and who allow many of these companies to use them for extremely cheap overseas shipping of smaller and or lighter items, as long as there is room in the holds of the aircraft.

There are many other advantages that their international retailers enjoy, that your local ones do not. e.g. why pay the costs of a service or assistance department, when you know that if anyone has a problem, the cost to return it to them for exchange or service would be detrimental, so, in effect, they do not need one. Consequently, they evade any of the consumer protection laws that exist in all Western countries.

Do they enjoy other advantages over the local retailers (mail order or otherwise), yes but it would take a book to cover them all.

I wonder how many Canadians are aware of the fact that many Chinese companies, operating in Canada, even have agreements with our governments to bring in their own workers from China!! Not only does it take away jobs from Canadians, but their cost for their own workers, in our own country, are a lot less!!
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Old 04-25-2012, 07:55 PM   #9
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Re: I'm really starting to lean away from clones!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesBC View Post
I do agree, good equipment makes good parts, at least if the person runing that machine is good at his job.

But I question just how much better is that Align part, considering that an Align 450V2 kit is selling for just under 140.00 in the US. A KDS 450 sells for more, so does that make it a better kit, I don't think so.

I really have not bought a complete kit yet, unless you count the RTF KDS-450 purchased sometime ago, which is still flying. That is if you call what I do flying(mainly its avoiding a crash).

Instead, I buy the parts I like and assemble then making sure everything is fitting. I really prefer the KDS metal tail rotor to anything I have seen yet. With 4 450's and one 500, I can without a dought say, I have never had a crash due to a part failure, brain failure yes but no part failure.

I am just thankful for places like HobbyKing and GoGo.RC where I can get parts plus many other things I probaly don't need. But also like Bensidus, I have a lathe and milling machine and not afraid to pull apart and fix any problems I precieve. But to be honest most of the parts from KDS, and HK plus the X-Copter FBL heads I have, have yet to find any real problem with them. Yes I have cleaned a few parts up with 400 wet and dry paper on a glass plate, used some steel wool with Valve Grinding grease to get a smooth fit. But that is about all.

Now if someone asked me what they should get to start flying heli's, I would say either a KDS 450, or Align 450 or even a HK 450. Then add to that a good radio, an SK-720 with proably the X-Copter FBL head and then have fun. I do think to many newbies start out with electronics that is more suited to some of you out there that can fly.

The one thing I truly don't understand is how I can order a few items from HobbyKing and get them in less time than if I order from some place in TO?

And with that, need to pull apart one 450 that I decided to try my hand at doing a dust off just like the real ones did many years ago. Which would have been perfect had the earth been about 11 inches lower.

Have a great day everyone.

Jim
Raining in BC

Very well said Jim In BC hm that includes Bensidius as he is in BC and also is a Jim.True what Phil said too. Some of us that don't have the deep pockets as others do . Chinese stuff is a bonus. Ok we can buy it cheap if we like it we are hooked. Now we can decide what we would like to do buy cheap all the time or buy something built by a brand manufacturer. Usually we step up to higher priced (better quality)Helis. I have a few helisand have favorites but as my skill improves so does my favorite. I have bought and built a few quads and each time I build one I upgrade the controllers which inturn makes an easier flying quad.
Pockets its all how deep they are have a blast and enjoy
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:04 PM   #10
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Re: I'm really starting to lean away from clones!!

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Originally Posted by hifly2104 View Post
Very well said Jim In BC hm that includes Bensidius as he is in BC and also is a Jim.True what Phil said too. Some of us that don't have the deep pockets as others do . Chinese stuff is a bonus. Ok we can buy it cheap if we like it we are hooked. Now we can decide what we would like to do buy cheap all the time or buy something built by a brand manufacturer. Usually we step up to higher priced (better quality)Helis. I have a few helisand have favorites but as my skill improves so does my favorite. I have bought and built a few quads and each time I build one I upgrade the controllers which inturn makes an easier flying quad.
Pockets its all how deep they are have a blast and enjoy
Of note is that a lower quality level may well not be all that much of a concern in smaller electric helis that use 325mm or shorter blades. But as one progresses, they will find that it makes a much bigger difference when one steps into the bigger ones that deal with forces that are a lot higher.
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