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Old 10-09-2019, 09:33 AM   #21
aquila
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines


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As a side note to Dean's comments regarding the air traps, my old CAI raptor does not use an air trap. In fact it hasn't even got a small header tank or a felt clunk. It has the 2 large saddle tanks that feed into a 32oz center tank. That goes straight to the pump. That old Pegasus has never missed a beat. Interestingly, back in my earlier days I never used an air trap as they didnt exist. Kangaroo with RAM750, aviation design Exocet with RAM750 (did use a 16oz Kraft fuel tank as a header) and Fiberclassics Eurosport (pre comp arf) with a Pegasus. I have had 5 flameouts in all my years of flying turbines. Ran out of fuel in my reaction, fail safe shut down the engine in my kingcat, ran out of fuel in my CAI razor and a leaking cap on a UAT caused a flameout in my kingcat twice. My flying style is not 3D in any way and in a 3D style jet an air trap probably is much more important but I think for the most part an air trap is just another really expensive part (for what it is) that we put in our jets, perhaps to "feel better" about things but probably isn't entirely necessary. I'm probably just going to go back to using a 4oz dubro header tank. $100+ for air traps seems sillier to me everytime I fly. We used header tanks in ducted fans but you could literally watch the fuel foam with the vibration of those things!
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Old 10-13-2019, 09:03 AM   #22
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

So lets start with fuel tanks/CG and placement. Keeping in mind that our fuel supply does change during flight as compared to a EDF power pack that does not - placement of the fuel tank at or as close to the CG of the aircraft is important. This is particularly critical in smaller airframes. Try to find a tank that is minimum 24 oz for > 30N turbines. Here is where careful selection of your airframe and tank comes into play. Look to convert aircraft with long moments, they are easier overall. Short noses such as the Vampire / Venom require ballast which is just dead weight. Some good examples of well proportioned airframes are the L39, Hawker Hunter, A4 SkyHawk and F16. Twin powered birds such as the F18, F4, F15 are a bit more complicated as you have to try to cram the tank between the spar and spine of the aircraft and then cut out an area in the back between the nozzles for the exhaust tube.

Note: I have been given a test mule Freewing 90 mm F18 to convert and will post pics shortly of how I place the fuel tank(s)

Now a word about fuel tanks...here is where you get to do some modeling. You can either go with the standard hobby variety or go to your favorite grocery store and start looking around for plastic bottles ( pop, juice, etc ). Some detective work may be needed but at least you get to enjoy the contents before you begin. Fittings can be found through various vendors. Ill go into that later.

So lets start with the Freewing Avanti 80mm. The pics below show some of the surgery needed to get in an 800 cc fuel tank over the CG. Worked out very well...

Note the cross cutting of the foam which makes it easier and cleaner to take out in small clean sections...
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Old 10-13-2019, 11:03 AM   #23
aquila
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

Dean it's great seeing posts from you with excitement. The foam jets arent my thing but what is my thing is seeing people excited about projects. I'm looking forward to seeing your foamy fleet next year!
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Old 10-14-2019, 09:23 AM   #24
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

Here is some interesting tidbits Jeremy.

Kingtech K30 / 45 sales appear to be >200 this year
X45 sales according to Gaspar since July are over 200 engines - currently 6 week backlog

The fastest growing segment of turbine modeling at present are small conversions and I predict you will be bugging me to fly one, in my fleet in early 2020. It may cost you though....lol

your buddy, pal
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Old 10-14-2019, 03:24 PM   #25
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquila View Post
As a side note to Dean's comments regarding the air traps, my old CAI raptor does not use an air trap. In fact it hasn't even got a small header tank or a felt clunk. It has the 2 large saddle tanks that feed into a 32oz center tank. That goes straight to the pump. That old Pegasus has never missed a beat. Interestingly, back in my earlier days I never used an air trap as they didnt exist. Kangaroo with RAM750, aviation design Exocet with RAM750 (did use a 16oz Kraft fuel tank as a header) and Fiberclassics Eurosport (pre comp arf) with a Pegasus. I have had 5 flameouts in all my years of flying turbines. Ran out of fuel in my reaction, fail safe shut down the engine in my kingcat, ran out of fuel in my CAI razor and a leaking cap on a UAT caused a flameout in my kingcat twice. My flying style is not 3D in any way and in a 3D style jet an air trap probably is much more important but I think for the most part an air trap is just another really expensive part (for what it is) that we put in our jets, perhaps to "feel better" about things but probably isn't entirely necessary. I'm probably just going to go back to using a 4oz dubro header tank. $100+ for air traps seems sillier to me everytime I fly. We used header tanks in ducted fans but you could literally watch the fuel foam with the vibration of those things!
Yup! Traps are a waste of time, money and weight. I haven't used them in years and have not had a flame out since. Before that I had two flame outs and they were both traced back to a leaking UAT cap. There is just to many ways for them to fail for me to feel safe using them. John Wright from England was the one who set me straight. For those that do not know, John is a major pioneer in the turbine world and HE will not use them. Going with John's advice I only use a pleated clunk and all is good.

Dean your going to want to use plenty of Aluminum Tape to encapsulate the turbine area so the heat reflects back from the foam. I would also suggest installing a top hatch. I've been there, done that.
Also strengthen up the elevators by pushing toothpicks or CF into them and then cover with packing tape or they will warp when you pull up. It leaves you with a hollow feeling when your pulling up and nothing happens.
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Old 10-14-2019, 03:48 PM   #26
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

Good points, thanks. ( especially on the elev!!! )

I like the idea of a top hatch for latent heat.
I also regularly use a leaf blower on shut down for my jets but know what you mean.

dw
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Old 10-14-2019, 07:10 PM   #27
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helijet View Post
Here is some interesting tidbits Jeremy.

Kingtech K30 / 45 sales appear to be >200 this year
X45 sales according to Gaspar since July are over 200 engines - currently 6 week backlog

The fastest growing segment of turbine modeling at present are small conversions and I predict you will be bugging me to fly one, in my fleet in early 2020. It may cost you though....lol

your buddy, pal
dw
I see Kingtech has two sizes/weights of the 45 including this one which is 450g:

http://www.kingtechturbines.com/prod...roducts_id=100

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Old 10-14-2019, 11:30 PM   #28
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

The KT is about 2 oz heavier but I think the installed weight will be higher with their larger ECU and fuel pump..... wiring , not sure. The X45 uses both brushless motors in pump and starter with installed weight of 470 grams with pump , ECU and wiring.
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Old 10-15-2019, 07:33 AM   #29
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

The X45 core engine ( incl. mount and FOD screen - must haves ) is just a bit under 400 grams. The KT is 50 grams heavier ( incl. FOD screen / mount ). In real world testing the engines are close in size and weight overall. Residual thrust however, is a different story. Its reported to be much higher with the KT with causes problems in slowing down these light airframes. This is were the X45 out performs : lower idle thrust, rapid acceleration, ability to operate on diesel.

The KT is cheaper though and has established servicing here in NA. I'm not knocking KT - the engines work as do Lambert turbines ( much higher cost ). Its good to have choices for the variety of 80 - 90mm airframes out there.

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Last edited by Helijet; 10-15-2019 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 10-17-2019, 01:56 PM   #30
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

The new generation nanoturbines are technological marvels. Here are some pictures of the X45 that I will be using in my conversions. If you operate Lambert or Kingtech turbines please post them here too. It helps with size comparison. S Bus technology rules....check out
the brushless pump size ( quarter for comparison)

Its always nice when a manufacturer meets or exceeds its specs...
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