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Old 08-13-2020, 08:14 PM   #291
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines


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Any particular reason for wanting to use Jet-A over kerosene? Pretty sure I drove Gaspar nuts with questions, and while Jet-A is similar to diesel and the X45 will run on diesel, he really recommends to use the Kerosene.

I get 5 gallons of Kerosene at a bulk station for about $50.
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Old 08-13-2020, 11:05 PM   #292
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

I have been under the impression that many manufactures tend to " tune " the combustion chambers / fuel sticks and subsequent electronics utilizing kerosene or Jet A. It is considered a fairly straight forward, consistent fuel used throughout the world.
Diesel is about 75% kero with added lubricants, cleaners, low sulphur additives and other crap. The combination can change depending where you are in the world and general availability. It is more viscous than kero which in turn can cause issues in colder weather. Diesel also has a higher btu output which can cause localized hotspots and advanced erosion of the fuel sticks.
While the smaller engines can run on diesel they are much more finicky to tune and have difficulty in temperatures below 5C. The larger engines with obviously larger internal parts don't seem to be as sensitive. So basically it comes down to being consistent. One other thing...the smaller engines ( 60N and less ) absolutely do not like water in the fuel. Rough starts, instability and unexplained flameouts are common....so be extra vigilant.
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Old 08-14-2020, 08:45 PM   #293
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

Well I just thought if I start with kero it would be better. CTC sells it at $30 + tax per 10 liters, I thought jetA at airport would be cheaper. I have mr funnel.

Although I bought the turbine, I am still frugal (cheap).
Add the two oils and it does add up.

My original Avanti had 45 flights in july. Now I know the turbine will not see that use, lets say 20 flights at 500ml that is a jug. $1/ day for fuel for one plane.

I thought to get a 25 liter jerry can bulk and then deal with cleaning at home, I was not aware of the smell of raw jetA, so I guess I don't want to store the plane nose down in garage.

Another question is in refueling, should I get the jersey models kero filling hoses and return opting for clean break or what have you guys been doing? with the felt clunk and no UAT how is the best refueling done to stop the mess? If I refill through a dedicated tube to main tank, is it just hand/eye coordination to get near 100% or do you use a return line t
back to jug?

I have HAB kit on the way fromTomas
I also plan on festo ball valve between filter and pump on suction side.

Remember it was just plug 6s in chager then to plane. BTW I will still keep and fly my original electric Avanti.

People HAVE said I have the gift of the gab.....
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Old 08-14-2020, 08:51 PM   #294
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpark View Post
You should be able to buy Jet A direct from the CARP Airport right from the fuel truck!

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Old 08-14-2020, 09:07 PM   #295
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

On a small turbine, the cost diff of the actual fuel probably isn’t much, the smell may be more important. Ive only run Kero, but heard that Jet-A additives make it stink, and don’t like diesel smell either. Also, no matter how hard you try, you will get some on your hands...possible another reason you may want to go with the least toxic/smelly fuel and oils you can justify.

On one jet (60N) I attach an external tank to the underbelly-located overflow/vent line and fill the overflow tank for startup and taxi fuel, then detach just before tankoff.
On my micro (30N) I haven’t brimmed the (oversize) 1L tank yet (filled to 800ml and no external used for startup), but if/when I do, the excess will just flow out the overflow/vent line sticking out the bottom. Same amount of mess as the overflow of a glow/gas fill.

Pretty easy to fill to full, just shutoff the pump a few ml early, as the tank may have slightly expanded during filling from inflow pressure and may “relax” and overflow if you stop it brimming full. Can always bump the pump a few times to brim it once you’re sure it’s relaxed.
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Old 08-14-2020, 09:29 PM   #296
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5546dug View Post
Although I bought the turbine, I am still frugal (cheap).
Add the two oils and it does add up.
Not sure what two oils you mean and what your turbine manufacturer recommends, but running cheaper oils (espc 2 stroke) may be a false economy if you’re trying to be frugal.

Some 2T oils (and even some older full size aeronautical turbine) oils can cause coking problems and may clog injectors or foul bearings. They’re not designed for being burnt at these temps (and full size turbine oils aren’t meant to be burnt at all since they’re recirculated). Some people still recommend cheap oil, but that may not be wise, especially on the more delicate micro turbines, which don’t really consume *that* much oil in a season. On a big thirsty turbines the cost could add up I guess, and maybe make it a worthwhile risk.

Kingtech specifically called out several oils that were commonly consider “adequate” because they were seeing issues with coking, and now will either void warranty (for the horrible oils) or charge an extra cleaning fee (for the merely poor oils).

Again, other manufacturers may have different acceptable standards, but even if the oil doesn’t void your warranty, the mere cost of shipping (with insurance and tracking fees) in your turbine early because of a minor issue (eg clogged injector or hot spot)caused by poor oil could blow any short term oil savings...

In my case, I have a 60N PST turbine which isn’t really worth servicing as the manufacture has shifted away from RC. I considered running 2T to minimize operational cost, but decided to run a good oil to keep it functional as long as I can before it dies. Also the oil is supposed to be less toxic when breathed in after burning.
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Old 08-17-2020, 01:06 PM   #297
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5546dug View Post
Well I just thought if I start with kero it would be better. CTC sells it at $30 + tax per 10 liters, I thought jetA at airport would be cheaper. I have mr funnel.

Although I bought the turbine, I am still frugal (cheap).
Add the two oils and it does add up.

My original Avanti had 45 flights in july. Now I know the turbine will not see that use, lets say 20 flights at 500ml that is a jug. $1/ day for fuel for one plane.

I thought to get a 25 liter jerry can bulk and then deal with cleaning at home, I was not aware of the smell of raw jetA, so I guess I don't want to store the plane nose down in garage.

Another question is in refueling, should I get the jersey models kero filling hoses and return opting for clean break or what have you guys been doing? with the felt clunk and no UAT how is the best refueling done to stop the mess? If I refill through a dedicated tube to main tank, is it just hand/eye coordination to get near 100% or do you use a return line t
back to jug?

I have HAB kit on the way fromTomas
I also plan on festo ball valve between filter and pump on suction side.

Remember it was just plug 6s in chager then to plane. BTW I will still keep and fly my original electric Avanti.

People HAVE said I have the gift of the gab.....
My local bulk fuels distributor - Northside Petroleum - sells Kerosene out of a pump for 1.52/L. We can get Jet A at the local airports for 1.20 ish/L but that’s only if you have a way to get airside easily and some only do billing by account. Canadian Tire is good but really expensive.

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Old 08-17-2020, 01:15 PM   #298
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkith View Post
Not sure what two oils you mean and what your turbine manufacturer recommends, but running cheaper oils (espc 2 stroke) may be a false economy if you’re trying to be frugal.

Some 2T oils (and even some older full size aeronautical turbine) oils can cause coking problems and may clog injectors or foul bearings. They’re not designed for being burnt at these temps (and full size turbine oils aren’t meant to be burnt at all since they’re recirculated). Some people still recommend cheap oil, but that may not be wise, especially on the more delicate micro turbines, which don’t really consume *that* much oil in a season. On a big thirsty turbines the cost could add up I guess, and maybe make it a worthwhile risk.

Kingtech specifically called out several oils that were commonly consider “adequate” because they were seeing issues with coking, and now will either void warranty (for the horrible oils) or charge an extra cleaning fee (for the merely poor oils).

Again, other manufacturers may have different acceptable standards, but even if the oil doesn’t void your warranty, the mere cost of shipping (with insurance and tracking fees) in your turbine early because of a minor issue (eg clogged injector or hot spot)caused by poor oil could blow any short term oil savings...

In my case, I have a 60N PST turbine which isn’t really worth servicing as the manufacture has shifted away from RC. I considered running 2T to minimize operational cost, but decided to run a good oil to keep it functional as long as I can before it dies. Also the oil is supposed to be less toxic when breathed in after burning.
Here’s a great chart from Kingtech on oils and coking, etc.
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Old 08-17-2020, 05:56 PM   #299
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

https://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-...-vs-dte-2.html
An interesting pro and con on oils but go back to page one.

Dean has some good valid points . After a lot of reading (not all here) I believe that bearings are pretty much all equal but a lot has to do with just how much oil/fuel is allowed down the oil passages to the bearings. Too little and the bearings are lube starved and too much and you may get coking with more issues.
Also JetA , kero and diesel are pretty much all the same ; with JetA being the driest , mean the least lubrication of all three ; kero being the middle of the road with few additives and diesel having the most lubricant/additives to maintain lubrication to diesel pumps and injectors .
At least that is my take on it.

Last edited by stegl; 08-17-2020 at 06:08 PM.
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Old 08-18-2020, 09:57 AM   #300
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Re: Converting EDF to turbines

I believe Jet-A1 and Kerosene 1K is more consistent, but Diesel blends can vary depending on the country. Some places it’s low quality and high-sulfur, in other places it’s really high quality.
Can make it tricky to rely on other people’s anecdotal experiences (e.g. “I ran Diesel with X% YY lube for ZZ hours and had the following experience...” as the base diesel quality may be affecting lubricity and coking.

Fortunately, I’ve heard Canada has pretty decent diesel if that’s the direction you go...
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