[davidmc36]

Originally Posted by mwavesdave

.....I'm curious if other clubs provide trainers?.....

We have a couple 40 trainers at Stetson. You can do some practicing and get stick time with your own smaller electric etc. and still have the opportunity to fulfill the requirement of doing your "exams" with the 40 size nitro.

[Max]

Our club has several fully equipped trainers for visitors and newcomers to try before they get into RC.

Other than demo flights, that are no-strings-attached, members who want to use the club trainers have the following limitations;
1) Bring your own fuel (and we only allow a certain set of brands/nitro so that there is no tweaking involved whent he plane goes from student to student on any given day
2) No take-off's or landings by students. We figure by the time a student progresses to the point they need to do take-offs and landings, they should have made up their mind if they want to stay in the hobby and by that point will also have a good idea what to buy.


Our club does not have a "wings test with only only one type of plane" rule (ie Nitro 40's and larger) That is a rule for the history books.
Today, you can get your wings on any plane provided it is of reasonable size and can do take-off's and landings on the runway (ie no small foamies or little hand-launch planes). Many a student has gotten his wings using the electric apprentice.

[davidmc36]

Originally Posted by Max

....That is a rule for the history books.
Today, you can get your wings on any plane provided it is of reasonable size....

Appropriate/reasonable/outdated or not, I know why they do it, simply to standardize and not leave it open to interpretation what is "reasonable" size.

"Joe Blow used his .15 size Thingamajig, why can't I use my .12 size Whadayacallit?!"

[Max]

Originally Posted by davidmc36

Appropriate/reasonable/outdated or not, I know why they do it, simply to standardize and not leave it open to interpretation what is "reasonable" size.

"Joe Blow used his .15 size Thingamajig, why can't I use my .12 size Whadayacallit?!"

I can see that being the standard in the "olden days". Heck, long ago I advocated for that as well.

But its kind of dumb these days to force a guy to buy/fly a large airplane when all he ever wants to fly is the little HK foamies. Before we changed the rule, people would not want to join the club because they were electric fliers only. Seems a shame discourage new/potential members who fly modern electrics just because of some old rules

[davidmc36]

Originally Posted by Max

But its kind of dumb these days to force a guy to buy...

That's why we have Club Trainers. If we did not provide them it would seem draconian, even unattainable, to make the requirement.

[Eye Can Fly]

One thing that hasn't been discussed on this thread is using all the senses. While glow fuel is messy, the glow engine does something for the new pilot. While "seeing" is the most valuable sense when flying a RC plane, the sense of "hearing" can be a real help for the newbie.

If the pilot blinks for looks away from an electric plane, it can be a real chore to find again. Re-acquiring a glow bird, because of the sound is quicker.

[jsparky]

Originally Posted by Max

Many a student has gotten his wings using the electric apprentice.

back when I was learning to fly.. I had asked the instructor one night.. What is stopping someone from getting their wings with a nice slow easy trainer.. and then going home and putting together a big turbine ???

His answer " A credit card bill "

Now I know some clubs now have rules to prevent this ,, but a lot of them don't.. and in my one club we have a fellow who did something just about as crazy.. and he has a problem of always flying through the sun and losing orientation.. Just after he got his wings with a nextar ,, he started bring out high speed aircraft.. one being a well powered skybolt.. fortunately the plane only made it about 10 feet.. unfortunately it did not survive.. and so was the same story for a couple of other planes..

Now to me there is a big differance between flying an electric apprentice at 20 mph and say an LT-40 at 50 to 60 mph.. the guy gets his wings with an apprentice and goes to the LHS and buys that 100 cc beast for his next ride..

Grap the popcorn and head for cover !!!

I am a strong advocate of " common sense " and good mechanics... and fly within your skill level..

Would you let your kids learn to drive the family sedan then hand them the keys to a Ferrari ... I would hope not..

[mwavesdave]

Not sure what rules other clubs use. We have a Field Operations/Safety Rep, and because we have to sign out the keys to the airfield gates, we always have someone responsible for field operations. We reserve the right to inspect any new aircraft, and highly encourage people to have someone give it a good going over. We also highly recommend the test flight be done by someone else, one of our more experienced pilots. For maiden flights, we ground the fleet, and keep all but the pilot and spotter away from the flight line. If, at any time, the field supervisor feels that a pilot isn't, or can't safely handle his aircraft, then he's directed to cease flying. We've had to do that a couple of times with people who've come out, and greatly over-estimated their own flying abilities.

One of my pet peeves with MAAC, they don't have a registry for traininq and qualifications. We've had people come out, with MAAC insurance, and state that they are Wings qualified. There's no way of confirming that, and in one case, the so-called qualifed pilot attempted to take off several times, nosing over each time, till we stopped him, checked the aircraft, and realized the elevators were reversed! He was able to fly it with the aid of a club instructor, and demonstrate a basic level of being able to fly. He then took off a large B-25 Mitchell, ARF Foam, beautiful airplane, but was obviously out of control. I ran over, and advised him that he was constantly stalling the aircraft, and needed to apply more power. He asked what a stall was!!! We grounded him, and in checking, found out that another club had really given him MAAC Pilot Wings! Insane.

We follow the MAAC Wings Program, and we test every new pilot now, regardless of their claims, unless they've been vouched for by a senior member. It's not a formal test, one of our instructors simply monitors a flight from start to finish, looking for safe proceedures, and demonstration of good flying habits. It certainly seems to have solved any issues with new members.

For students, even if they show up with their own aircraft, we always start them on my 8 foot Telemaster. The thing is insanely slow, takes off by itself, and climbs to circuit height with no input other than setting 1/2 throttle, and if you line it up on the runway, and kill the throttle, you can set the transmitter down, and go get a coffee while it lands itself. (yes, I've really set the transmitter down, and sipped coffee while it landed). It's huge, easy to see, and easy to see how it reacts to inputs. The second they are bored with it, we move up to an Alpha 60. Faster, but still big, and capable of some basic aerobatics, and inverted flight. Again, once they're confident with that, then it's down to either the Alpha 40, or the Flying Turkey (long story), they're no faster than the Alpha 60, but they are smaller, so require more attention. Once they've mastered that, lots of touch and go's, deadsticks, (I rarely let them land the telemaster until the fuel's run out), they're safe, effective, and ready to move up to a sportier aircraft.

[jsparky]

I agree with Dave on the majority of things and all points are valid common sense..

Originally Posted by mwavesdave

We have a Field Operations/Safety Rep,

Most fields have a field manager of some type and in most cases any of the members would keep an eye out for anything unsafe.. and for the senior members you would be the ones to set the example..

Originally Posted by mwavesdave

We reserve the right to inspect any new aircraft, and highly encourage people to have someone give it a good going over.

This again is a very valid point in my mind,, after the fellow mentioned previously had crashed all that he had.. he bought a nice little space walker.. good second plane.. trouble was ,, he bought it tuesday afternoon and had it at the field wed afternoon.. I just happen to be there and casually looking over the plane mentioned that he was missing some clevis retainers.. and the screw in the one aileron servo was only started into the control horn and not fully screwed in.. after fixing all of this we got to the pits and he went to start it up.. and it went full throttle.. so fine shut it down and reversed his throttle and wanted to go again.. woah up there.. your end points will be off now... tried to explain that if he didn't have them set right he could over drive a servo and burn it out or kill his battery , in flight maybe..

I had suggested another night at a group of us standing around about having inspections for new people until they could demonstrate that they where diligant in doing pre-checks to the aircraft. That idea got shot down quickly..

But then again I have seen a few so called " senior " members.. that truthfully I wouldn't let them touch my plane.. Their own mechanics where so flimsy that it was a wonder they didn't crash all the time.. and a few of them did !!

Originally Posted by mwavesdave

We also highly recommend the test flight be done by someone else, one of our more experienced pilots. For maiden flights, we ground the fleet, and keep all but the pilot and spotter away from the flight line.

This idea,, for it's intent.. is a good idea.. and if the field safety guy feels that the new pilot may be putting themselves or others at risk.. It should be suggested that they allow someone to " help " them or prehaps hang the aircraft until they have more experince.. But if they really want to do it themselves , then move everyone out of the way and get this guy pointed away from everything... grab the popcorn and head for cover..

Sometimes a lesson has to be hard learned for some people..

Originally Posted by mwavesdave

unless they've been vouched for by a senior member. It's not a formal test, one of our instructors simply monitors a flight from start to finish, looking for safe proceedures, and demonstration of good flying habits

This is pretty much standard in any club,, any myself ,, I fully expect to be "Checked out" I wouldn't expect anything less


As for the using your telemaster Dave... I applaude you on your efforts and willingness to help the new beginner.. But at the same time.. and I know if it was me.. After working hard to build my first plane... I would want to fly it.. so it is really a judgement call on the part of the club if they have people like you who are willing to go the extra step.. But not all clubs can do this or have people willing to do this sort of thing.. But it is an excellent idea to graduate up through the ranks ,, so to say.. If every club could have a " club trainer " that is a known aircraft and is known to preform a certain way.. then this would be a good way to standardize a wings program.. start with the club trainer so that the new beginner learns what to expect.. then move on to the next one.. hard to learn with an aircraft that is not preforming as it should be..

Originally Posted by mwavesdave

and if you line it up on the runway, and kill the throttle, you can set the transmitter down, and go get a coffee while it lands itself.

Hey Dave .. PM me your setup will you.. CG power , flaps etc... I flew my 8 foot telemaster this year for the first time.. It surprised the hell out me on the first flight.. It lifted off in about 3 foot roll,,, then it took me 4 tries to get the bloody thing to come back down.. It flies great and I love taking it out.. but sounds like you have yours dialed in perfect..

[mwavesdave]

What we do for people with their own trainer, is do the inspection, get it all set up, and do a long test flight. Once it's all trimmed out, then we do a bit of training on it. After that, a couple of flights on the Telemaster, and if they're progressing well, back over to their plane. One recent student has a really nice LT 40, so think he did about 3 or 4 flights on the Telemaster, then after that, all the rest of his training on that. He's fully wings qualified now! Didn't take him long either, for an old guy! lol. Anyone a day older than me, is old. That's my rule!